Oil !

[psychocat]

Don't worry I hate the UN as much as you. They do nothing but, complain and put sanctions on countries that are ineffective. As for Iraq I don't think we have a "right" to be there, but to help someone you have to teach them to help themselves. We already did the big parts they just need to help chip in especially when they are sitting on a huge surplus. We are building schools and roads that weren't there before we invaded. If were going to just put it back to the way it was before ,of course we should be the only ones to pay then, but we are making it better than before.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you then saying
It's okay to destroy a shitload of stuff and then rebuild it and to top it off you also expect to be paid for doing it ?

I feel sure my local builders would be interested in that sort of deal.

[overgrowthegovt]

Don't worry I hate the UN as much as you. They do nothing but, complain and put sanctions on countries that are ineffective. As for Iraq I don't think we have a "right" to be there, but to help someone you have to teach them to help themselves. We already did the big parts they just need to help chip in especially when they are sitting on a huge surplus. We are building schools and roads that weren't there before we invaded. If were going to just put it back to the way it was before ,of course we should be the only ones to pay then, but we are making it better than before.

Tell that to someone who saw their son's guts blown over the road in the holy name of the American economic agenda. Yes, I know Hussein was a dictator and that he killed a lot of people, but not nearly as many as have been lost and will continue to be lost in this invasion. There was at least a basic stability--with the situation now, we'll have insurgents running amok killing people until the Western presence is completely gone.

[apocolips31]

Again you are incorrect. Lets try again. Marijuana is illegal in the US, hence you do not have the positive freedom to consume marijuana in the US, known as marijuana prohibition. Yet if we are not free to consume cannabis, why is this action taking place? Better yet, how is this action taking place if we are not free to do so?



This line of logic will take you down a slippery slope.

I do not have the power to lift a oil barge from the water with my mind even though i want to. If freedom is doing whatever you want, whenever you want, i am not free in this situation.

Similarly:

I do not have the power to lift an oil barge from the water with my mind, and i do not want to. If freedom is doing whatever you want, whenever you want, i am free in this situation.

How is it that i was not free in the first example, but free in the second?

I await your response to the question above.

Ok first of all I thought we are talking about reality, you know the thing with limitations. I was talking about freedoms that were actually possible. Also for the cannabis example that is one of the acts you may be free to commit but, could you go kill someone and be free not to suffer any consequences? I think not. So like I said freedom is being able to do whatever you want, when you want and how many times you want(with in reality's limitations.....).So the end result is still the same , your freedom being prohibited.
This part is to psycho, I do not think that is what I said at all. I do not think we should be allowed to bust someones shit up and then get paid for doing it. But when you bust someones car up and pay for it to be fixed and then add in a better engine or plasma tvs in the back seats you should be paid partly for it. I am not saying we should be paid back full or even half or even a tenth, but when you have money coming out your ass and ask us to stay even longer I think they can help chip in.
This is for overgrow, I don't know exactly to what you are responding to but, if you think I am for the Iraq war you are sadly mistaken. I think that invading Iraq was one of the worst decisions the US has made this century. But as llife would have it mistakes are made and this happens to be a big one. So should we just fuck all the shit up and then say fix it your damn self or stay and make sure that they can actually ride the bike by themselves before taking off the training wheels?

[psychocat]

The more I read from you apocolips31 the more convinced I become that you are insane.
You go in without an invite , blow the shit out of the place and then expect the people to be grateful that you are setting up a puppet goverment and getting paid for it too.

Do you not see the stupidity of what you believe ?

[GoldenBoy812]

Ok first of all I thought we are talking about reality, you know the thing with limitations.

Under your original assumption, realities limitations negate the possibility for freedom to exist. You said "whatever you want, whenever you want".

If i want to break into Fort. Knox and steal all of the gold, what effect does not bringing a truck have on my freedom? Without a truck to carry the tons of dense metal, i would not be able to steal all of the gold, therefore under your assertion, my lack of possessing a truck is limiting my freedom.

But... if i were a rational being who cared about my self interest, not having a truck might factor into my decision along with the armed guards, and potential death or imprisonment.

So where i am free to attempt anything i want, in doing so i must accept the fact that a possibility of failure does exist. Therefore the potential risk of failure cannot be thought of as the potential loss of freedom. When a potential risk of failure alters my decision, and i choose not to do something; i was free to make that decision. Cohesion equals potential risk of failure only if cohesion also equals potential satisfaction.

I was talking about freedoms that were actually possible.

I provided vast examples encompassing many realms of existence.

Also for the cannabis example that is one of the acts you may be free to commit but, could you go kill someone and be free not to suffer any consequences?

You are begging the question here.

I think not.

Are you saying nobody has ever gotten away with murder completely unsuspected?

So like I said freedom is being able to do whatever you want, when you want and how many times you want(with in reality's limitations.....).So the end result is still the same , your freedom being prohibited.

If I do not want to do something, and someone puts a gun to my head telling me to do it or i die, my freedom is being prohibited. Reason be, cohesion is equaling both potential risk and reward. You are unknowingly labeling freedom as a zero sum game. The situation i described above is a zero sum game, where risk = reward. In this situation, choice has been removed, hence the ability to choose = freedom.

[apocolips31]

........This is getting tiresome. This conversation is obviously never going to end. We have been stuck on what the definition and levels of freedom are for quite some time now.You have these weird impossible examples trying to prove your point. In each case the end result is the same, freedom being prohibited. No matter if you can get away with 999 things out of 1,000, it only takes once for your freedom to be prohibited. Unless you believe their has actually been one person in the entire span of human existence that hasn't been prohibited from doing something at some point in their life. Thus no one can ever TRULY be free. Lets have a hypothetical scenario shall we? Lets say a prisoner is in prison(of course lol) and that he is free to get up and use the bathroom when ever he wants OK? So he is free for this moment in time for this certain action. Now lets say he wants to get out of his cell and use the restroom at the citgo, but sense he is a prisoner he can't. So in this situation his freedom was prohibited.What have we learned? That just ,because someone is free in one instance doesn't mean that they are truly free in another or at all. Enough of hijacking this thread if you want to continue this conversation lets continue it by private means. To Psycho: strange and to think I think the same of you lol. The argument that we have is open ended. We can sit here all day arguing and throwing analogy's at each other. If you want to continue this discussion then please pm me.

[GoldenBoy812]

........This is getting tiresome. This conversation is obviously never going to end. We have been stuck on what the definition and levels of freedom are for quite some time now.You have these weird impossible examples trying to prove your point. In each case the end result is the same, freedom being prohibited. No matter if you can get away with 999 things out of 1,000, it only takes once for your freedom to be prohibited. Unless you believe their has actually been one person in the entire span of human existence that hasn't been prohibited from doing something at some point in their life. Thus no one can ever TRULY be free. Lets have a hypothetical scenario shall we? Lets say a prisoner is in prison(of course lol) and that he is free to get up and use the bathroom when ever he wants OK? So he is free for this moment in time for this certain action. Now lets say he wants to get out of his cell and use the restroom at the citgo, but sense he is a prisoner he can't. So in this situation his freedom was prohibited.What have we learned? That just ,because someone is free in one instance doesn't mean that they are truly free in another or at all. Enough of hijacking this thread if you want to continue this conversation lets continue it by private means. To Psycho: strange and to think I think the same of you lol. The argument that we have is open ended. We can sit here all day arguing and throwing analogy's at each other. If you want to continue this discussion then please pm me.

The point i am trying to make is that freedom is the ability to choose. My argument is based on logic, not perception or deviation of the topic at hand. If you have found faults or unsoundness in my logic, by all means do explain. Just because you believe something to be so, does not make it so. By offering support to back up your assertions, it will be much harder for me to critique your premises.

PM is disabled on this site; cops must have threatened the administrator or something...

[apocolips31]

I feel I made my reasoning quite clear. Enough of bickering over the definition of a word. I already reached my limit on this one. Fun to debate with you though, I always enjoy it. I guess at this point we have to agree to disagree.

[GoldenBoy812]

I feel I made my reasoning quite clear. Enough of bickering over the definition of a word. I already reached my limit on this one. Fun to debate with you though, I always enjoy it. I guess at this point we have to agree to disagree.

Touche'

[psychocat]

... To Psycho: strange and to think I think the same of you lol. The argument that we have is open ended. We can sit here all day arguing and throwing analogy's at each other. If you want to continue this discussion then please pm me.

I prefer to have my discussions right here ty.

Please tell me how much an Iraqi or Americans life is worth ?

Did you conveniently forget the human cost ?

That is why your obsession with getting a buck out of the "effort" comes across as pure greed.