First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"

[Mother]

Thanks Dog. I'm stressin on this one a lot. It's a tightrope.

Sal: you and your team have already done an invaluable service through your inventions and spreading of knowledge. I hope the capitalist complex rewards you, and if it does, so much the better, but if not, you must know that if you look at the scale of the change this knowledge will produce, you've already contributed to others to this point far more than most will in their whole lives, and that's only set to increase as we figure things out and as you are able to publish. :thumbsup:


Now if you'll humor me, I'd like to answer the questions following my new working theory post utilizing the info from the theory to "try it on for size" and see how it relates... This is my "mental" way of fitting pieces together to "use what works and discard what doesn't." I'm posting this for everyone to examine and poke holes in, so don't be shy.

Trading slower AD spectrum time for ND/SID time, looks like the best starting place for first timers. Even the Martian NightBreak Test trades 15 for 15 minutes to start with. Once people get that you can't just trade hour for hour with different forms of Darkness, we think they'll get what they need to enbrace the power of the information here.

And this is what I found out the hard way when my plants started re-vegging. I replaced a relatively fast spectrum (SID) with a combination of Red and Far Red via red incandescent bulbs (same as Dog's uncle) to figure out that while the Far Red was helping with flowering (by speeding up the misc. processes) the Red in the bulb directly counteracts with the Far Red (with respect to phytochrome function), significantly mitigating the effect. Adding only RedInc bulbs does help though, because it speeds up photosynthesis to provide energy to the misc. processes anyway. The reason you can't run them all night is that the relative speeding up via the Far Red and the relative slowing down via the Red balance out at a point that is slower than complete darkness.

Another hurdle is that 12 hours of SID to us, looks like 10 hours SOD (Standard Outdoor Darkness) to the plant, but people are caught on 12 hours darkness (12/12) and uncomfortable with other (too) COMPLICATED methods or schedules.

The increase in Far Red at sunset and the presence of Far Red during outdoor darkness (not sure if this is all night or just for a while) serve to speed up the misc. processes enough that outdoors the plant needs only 10 hours to do the work that it takes 12 hours to do indoors, hence:

12 hours Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) with no Far Red is approximately the same as 10 hours Standard Outdoor Darkness INCLUDING Far Red.

735nm Far Red alone is the fastest darkness spectrum, so it takes less time than other spectrums to produce the same number of genetic clock ticks (i.e. 12/12 like results).

Because Far Red speeds the misc. processes more than even total darkness does.

Speeding up the Darkness to get 12 hours of "work" done in 9 to 10 hours works, but putting more DAYTIME light on the daily clock by using more energy at night is not as energy efficient as optimizing the night hours for Photosynthesis in our view.

My guess is because that while Blue light is present, the plant is geared toward vegging so that's what the photosynthesis energy is largely used for, rather than put toward flowering. If photosynthesis is added during the night, the vegging processes can't steal the energy so it's available for flowering.

HID growers don't have the ability to run individual light spectrums (so to speak) we could but that's just adding to the wattage I would think. LED growers will. T5 growers can do it much easer then HID growers by using different Kelvin temp tubes and with blue and red tubes ect.. Both of those type of growers have a spectral advantage over the single light source HID growers IMO..

True, but I wouldn't feel too bad about your "spectral disadvantage" because you currently have a daytime source that provides significant Far Red, so although it's more useful at night, it still helps you during the day. :thumbsup:

I believe one of the best parts about the martin method for HID growers will be shifting of the 24 hour k spectrum using martin nights. Now one might ask. Why would I want to use red light or any other color light at night to shift my 24 hour spectrum? You might also ask. Why don't you just add it to your day time spectrum and be done with it? Well Heat, Heat, and more heat and of course the best part. You would miss out on the MARTIN AFFECT...The Martin Effects can do all kinds of fun stuff.
1. Combats stem elongation in the first two weeks of pre-flower (slamm the plant right into flowering) and gains you some time by virtually eliminating some plants two week pre-flower time. (ours did)
2. Adds to the trichome production (on our plants it did).
3. Red light stimulated flower production IMO
4. Can work in garden when martin night are on (always a bonus).
5. (one of the most important IMO) Martin Nights can shift the plants 24 hour K spectrum (this will allow us to use a much higher horsepower light "more blue" during our day time) but make the plants think it's still growing under a much warmer Kelvin temp without adding heat to the day light time(alot of math going on to make this work correctly and efficiently IMO).....
6. Speed up the plants clock (when I figure that part out)

My guesses as to why these effects occur (assuming Dog is talking about what happened after he and his uncle added Red fluoros to the night cycle):
1,2,3: Not sure about the stem elongation, but shortening the pre-flower time, the increased trichome production, and stimulated flower production is probably due to the extra available photosynthetic energy provided by the Red light.
4: Yes, I found this out too, and it is a nice bonus
5: More Blue means more vegging/photosynthesis and more Red means more photosynthesis so overall the plant should have way more available energy, however it decides to use it.
6: The Red actually slows down the clock with respect to night time (an all-Red night is waaaay slower than a completely dark night) but at the same time, the extra Red provides more photosynthetic energy that is available to the misc. processes that come directly afterward, so they are more productive. (More detail on this in a bit)

So the plants indoors with (SID) and no far red is running approx 2 hours slower then outdoors? Dammm it...

So what's 12 hours (SID) with far red?

If you add the same amount of Far Red that mother nature does, then it would seem to the plants like around 14.4 hours.
SOD naturally provides Far Red (and therefore is more productive)
SID does not (and therefor is less productive)
If a 12 hour indoor night looks to the plant like a 10 hour outdoor night, then the time factor is 1.2 (12/10) based on the outdoor levels of Far Red light. Assuming those same levels are replicated indoors, the time factor would be the same, so 12 hours with Far Red would seem like 14.4 hours (12 x 1.2)

We have flowered under 10/14 but got lower yields also we have vegged under 15.5/8.5 that was ok I guess.... I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to.

I believe you get lower yields this way because of a lack of photosynthetic energy near the end of the dark period. The 14-hour night provides plenty of time for the misc. processes to work, but they run out of fuel so by the end of the night time, the plant is basically stalled. This might also be a good reason for a sun-up period as well. If you turn on the Martian lights just before sunrise, you can add the energy the plant was lacking yet still have a period with high levels of available "misc. process product" such as hormones, enzymes, Pr, etc. Of course they'll get used up pretty quickly, but that's about the time you're transitioning into day!

Waite a minute here. I need to absorb all this.. I think this is MY first over load...LOL..... I need to do Just like Meatloaf says "let me sleep on it"

Dog, I definitely agree there! I've been overloaded many times already, and the two things that seem to help me are sleep and a perspective change. :stoned:

As always sal you leave me wanting to ask alot more ?'s :smokin:

You and me both, my friend!

I'm still in the process of trying to figure out which spectrums have which effects, and I haven't yet brought in the idea of synergy between the spectrums, but I'm convinced that synergy is actually the most important feature of the Martian Method.

Consider the 15-minute Red night break test. Why would adding 15 minutes of much slower night time produce better flowering results, but adding it in all night produces a vegging plant?
I think this is because of some of the effects and counter-effects mentioned above. Adding the Red light reverses Pfr->Pr conversion (meaning it induces Pr->Pfr conversion), and Pr is necessary for flowering (part of the misc. processes). But, this happens only for 15 minutes and during that 15 minutes, a significant amount of photosynthetic energy was produced and is thereafter available for the rest of the night process to do even more work. Once the light is off and Pfr->Pr re-commences, the misc. processes will also re-commence, with the difference being the higher level of available energy.
On the other hand, if you add it in all night, the misc. processes have all the energy they'd need but they never get activated because of the suppression effect of Red on misc. processes.

This is my working guess, so please critique as you see fit!

I'm also taking my own advice... Yesterday I adjusted my flowering schedule again:
10 hours daylight (everything on)
7 hours Martian night (half of the Red LEDs and all RedIncs on)
6 hours SID (no light whatsoever)
1 hour Martian night (a daybreak period)

I also chopped the cheese plant. It was already at the full height of the cabinet and it hadn't even begun flowering, and the root problem got worse. In chopping it, I found out that the root problem was that it was rootbound (from being so tall) and putting it in a bigger container is not really an option so I guess that all worked out for the best.