First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"

[salmayo]

I read this statment originally on the Perfect LED Grow by physicsnole

And i have not seen any direct reply to this statement. Would this work?

12 hours Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) with no Far Red is approximately the same as 10 hours Standard Outdoor Darkness INCLUDING Far Red.

735nm Far Red alone is the fastest darkness spectrum, so it takes less time than other spectrums to produce the same number of genetic clock ticks (i.e. 12/12 like results).

I wish more peolpe were familiar with 14/10 to 10/14 schedules.

Speeding up the Darkness to get 12 hours of "work" done in 9 to 10 hours works, but putting more DAYTIME light on the daily clock by using more energy at night is not as energy efficient as optimizing the night hours for Photosynthesis in our view.

So yes it works, but it trades time for energy and produces less per watt. Luckily these type of night speed effects can be done with lower intensity Far Red than ballancing out against Red/Orange/Yellow spectrums.

A intense Far Red burst gets things rolling (at Nightfall), but then lower levels of Far Red can be used to maintain the phytochrome populations at Far Red saturation for the rest of the night (or so).

Good Post AfricanAlien. Thanks for sharing that one.

Take Care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

Not ruling out IR effects, but FR seems to be the better one to go with at the moment (Martian Science changes with progress).

Thank you. That was the answer I was looking for..

I think it was "in the same 24 hour cycle...", I am typo king after all.

No not a typo on your part at all. You did say 24 hours. I was Just speaking about the plan of attack next time for my uncle and I. Me typed before me explained (hate when that happens). We want to maximize our HID experience using the martin method (that has a nice ring to it). I know we will be different then most here. But I think alot of HPS growers like my uncle and I could gain from the martin method. Heck I think all growers will gain from this method. But with that said. HID growers don't have the ability to run individual light spectrums (so to speak) we could but that's just adding to the wattage I would think. LED growers will. T5 growers can do it much easer then HID growers by using different Kelvin temp tubes and with blue and red tubes ect.. Both of those type of growers have a spectral advantage over the single light source HID growers IMO.. BUT I think the martin method can change some of that. For example...We are using the 2k HPS bulb and red martin nights to flower now. BUT our plants are NOT flowering under a 2 k spectrum at all. It's more like 1,100 K if that IMO. When the 200w of red inc.'s were on it seemed like it was about a 500 K (do they make that strong of warm k bulb lol)... I believe one of the best parts about the martin method for HID growers will be shifting of the 24 hour k spectrum using martin nights. Now one might ask. Why would I want to use red light or any other color light at night to shift my 24 hour spectrum? You might also ask. Why don't you just add it to your day time spectrum and be done with it? Well Heat, Heat, and more heat and of course the best part. You would miss out on the MARTIN AFFECT...The Martin Effects can do all kinds of fun stuff.
1. Combats stem elongation in the first two weeks of pre-flower (slamm the plant right into flowering) and gains you some time by virtually eliminating some plants two week pre-flower time. (ours did)
2. Adds to the trichome production (on our plants it did).
3. Red light stimulated flower production IMO
4. Can work in garden when martin night are on (always a bonus).
5. (one of the most important IMO) Martin Nights can shift the plants 24 hour K spectrum (this will allow us to use a much higher horsepower light "more blue" during our day time) but make the plants think it's still growing under a much warmer Kelvin temp without adding heat to the day light time(alot of math going on to make this work correctly and efficiently IMO).....
6. Speed up the plants clock (when I figure that part out)
7. 8. 9. yet to be determined LOL.

Sal .....#5 we will need help with.. How much martin light and how long should the light be on with the specific bulbs we plan on using.. Next time

Trading slower AD spectrum time for ND/SID time, looks like the best starting place for first timers. Even the Martian NightBreak Test trades 15 for 15 minutes to start with. Once people get that you can't just trade hour for hour with different forms of Darkness, we think they'll get what they need to embrace the power of the information here.

Another hurdle is that 12 hours of SID to us, looks like 10 hours SOD (Standard Outdoor Darkness) to the plant, but people are caught on 12 hours darkness (12/12) and uncomfortable with other (too) COMPLICATED methods or schedules.

I need to read this and re-read this lol...

[Dogznova]

12 hours Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) with no Far Red is approximately the same as 10 hours Standard Outdoor Darkness INCLUDING Far Red.

735nm Far Red alone is the fastest darkness spectrum, so it takes less time than other spectrums to produce the same number of genetic clock ticks (i.e. 12/12 like results)..

So the plants indoors with (SID) and no far red is running approx 2 hours slower then outdoors? Dammm it...

So what's 12 hours (SID) with far red?

I wish more peolpe were familiar with 14/10 to 10/14 schedules..

We have flowered under 10/14 but got lower yields also we have vegged under 15.5/8.5 that was ok I guess.... I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to.

Speeding up the Darkness to get 12 hours of "work" done in 9 to 10 hours works, but putting more DAYTIME light on the daily clock by using more energy at night is not as energy efficient as optimizing the night hours for Photosynthesis in our view.

So yes it works, but it trades time for energy and produces less per watt. Luckily these type of night speed effects can be done with lower intensity Far Red than ballancing out against Red/Orange/Yellow spectrums.

A intense Far Red burst gets things rolling (at Nightfall), but then lower levels of Far Red can be used to maintain the phytochrome populations at Far Red saturation for the rest of the night (or so)..

Waite a minute here. I need to absorb all this.. I think this is MY first over load...LOL..... I need to do Just like Meatloaf says "let me sleep on it"

As always sal you leave me wanting to ask alot more ?'s :smokin:

[Mother]

Thanks Dog. I'm stressin on this one a lot. It's a tightrope.

Sal: you and your team have already done an invaluable service through your inventions and spreading of knowledge. I hope the capitalist complex rewards you, and if it does, so much the better, but if not, you must know that if you look at the scale of the change this knowledge will produce, you've already contributed to others to this point far more than most will in their whole lives, and that's only set to increase as we figure things out and as you are able to publish. :thumbsup:


Now if you'll humor me, I'd like to answer the questions following my new working theory post utilizing the info from the theory to "try it on for size" and see how it relates... This is my "mental" way of fitting pieces together to "use what works and discard what doesn't." I'm posting this for everyone to examine and poke holes in, so don't be shy.

Trading slower AD spectrum time for ND/SID time, looks like the best starting place for first timers. Even the Martian NightBreak Test trades 15 for 15 minutes to start with. Once people get that you can't just trade hour for hour with different forms of Darkness, we think they'll get what they need to enbrace the power of the information here.

And this is what I found out the hard way when my plants started re-vegging. I replaced a relatively fast spectrum (SID) with a combination of Red and Far Red via red incandescent bulbs (same as Dog's uncle) to figure out that while the Far Red was helping with flowering (by speeding up the misc. processes) the Red in the bulb directly counteracts with the Far Red (with respect to phytochrome function), significantly mitigating the effect. Adding only RedInc bulbs does help though, because it speeds up photosynthesis to provide energy to the misc. processes anyway. The reason you can't run them all night is that the relative speeding up via the Far Red and the relative slowing down via the Red balance out at a point that is slower than complete darkness.

Another hurdle is that 12 hours of SID to us, looks like 10 hours SOD (Standard Outdoor Darkness) to the plant, but people are caught on 12 hours darkness (12/12) and uncomfortable with other (too) COMPLICATED methods or schedules.

The increase in Far Red at sunset and the presence of Far Red during outdoor darkness (not sure if this is all night or just for a while) serve to speed up the misc. processes enough that outdoors the plant needs only 10 hours to do the work that it takes 12 hours to do indoors, hence:

12 hours Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) with no Far Red is approximately the same as 10 hours Standard Outdoor Darkness INCLUDING Far Red.

735nm Far Red alone is the fastest darkness spectrum, so it takes less time than other spectrums to produce the same number of genetic clock ticks (i.e. 12/12 like results).

Because Far Red speeds the misc. processes more than even total darkness does.

Speeding up the Darkness to get 12 hours of "work" done in 9 to 10 hours works, but putting more DAYTIME light on the daily clock by using more energy at night is not as energy efficient as optimizing the night hours for Photosynthesis in our view.

My guess is because that while Blue light is present, the plant is geared toward vegging so that's what the photosynthesis energy is largely used for, rather than put toward flowering. If photosynthesis is added during the night, the vegging processes can't steal the energy so it's available for flowering.

HID growers don't have the ability to run individual light spectrums (so to speak) we could but that's just adding to the wattage I would think. LED growers will. T5 growers can do it much easer then HID growers by using different Kelvin temp tubes and with blue and red tubes ect.. Both of those type of growers have a spectral advantage over the single light source HID growers IMO..

True, but I wouldn't feel too bad about your "spectral disadvantage" because you currently have a daytime source that provides significant Far Red, so although it's more useful at night, it still helps you during the day. :thumbsup:

I believe one of the best parts about the martin method for HID growers will be shifting of the 24 hour k spectrum using martin nights. Now one might ask. Why would I want to use red light or any other color light at night to shift my 24 hour spectrum? You might also ask. Why don't you just add it to your day time spectrum and be done with it? Well Heat, Heat, and more heat and of course the best part. You would miss out on the MARTIN AFFECT...The Martin Effects can do all kinds of fun stuff.
1. Combats stem elongation in the first two weeks of pre-flower (slamm the plant right into flowering) and gains you some time by virtually eliminating some plants two week pre-flower time. (ours did)
2. Adds to the trichome production (on our plants it did).
3. Red light stimulated flower production IMO
4. Can work in garden when martin night are on (always a bonus).
5. (one of the most important IMO) Martin Nights can shift the plants 24 hour K spectrum (this will allow us to use a much higher horsepower light "more blue" during our day time) but make the plants think it's still growing under a much warmer Kelvin temp without adding heat to the day light time(alot of math going on to make this work correctly and efficiently IMO).....
6. Speed up the plants clock (when I figure that part out)

My guesses as to why these effects occur (assuming Dog is talking about what happened after he and his uncle added Red fluoros to the night cycle):
1,2,3: Not sure about the stem elongation, but shortening the pre-flower time, the increased trichome production, and stimulated flower production is probably due to the extra available photosynthetic energy provided by the Red light.
4: Yes, I found this out too, and it is a nice bonus
5: More Blue means more vegging/photosynthesis and more Red means more photosynthesis so overall the plant should have way more available energy, however it decides to use it.
6: The Red actually slows down the clock with respect to night time (an all-Red night is waaaay slower than a completely dark night) but at the same time, the extra Red provides more photosynthetic energy that is available to the misc. processes that come directly afterward, so they are more productive. (More detail on this in a bit)

So the plants indoors with (SID) and no far red is running approx 2 hours slower then outdoors? Dammm it...

So what's 12 hours (SID) with far red?

If you add the same amount of Far Red that mother nature does, then it would seem to the plants like around 14.4 hours.
SOD naturally provides Far Red (and therefore is more productive)
SID does not (and therefor is less productive)
If a 12 hour indoor night looks to the plant like a 10 hour outdoor night, then the time factor is 1.2 (12/10) based on the outdoor levels of Far Red light. Assuming those same levels are replicated indoors, the time factor would be the same, so 12 hours with Far Red would seem like 14.4 hours (12 x 1.2)

We have flowered under 10/14 but got lower yields also we have vegged under 15.5/8.5 that was ok I guess.... I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to.

I believe you get lower yields this way because of a lack of photosynthetic energy near the end of the dark period. The 14-hour night provides plenty of time for the misc. processes to work, but they run out of fuel so by the end of the night time, the plant is basically stalled. This might also be a good reason for a sun-up period as well. If you turn on the Martian lights just before sunrise, you can add the energy the plant was lacking yet still have a period with high levels of available "misc. process product" such as hormones, enzymes, Pr, etc. Of course they'll get used up pretty quickly, but that's about the time you're transitioning into day!

Waite a minute here. I need to absorb all this.. I think this is MY first over load...LOL..... I need to do Just like Meatloaf says "let me sleep on it"

Dog, I definitely agree there! I've been overloaded many times already, and the two things that seem to help me are sleep and a perspective change. :stoned:

As always sal you leave me wanting to ask alot more ?'s :smokin:

You and me both, my friend!

I'm still in the process of trying to figure out which spectrums have which effects, and I haven't yet brought in the idea of synergy between the spectrums, but I'm convinced that synergy is actually the most important feature of the Martian Method.

Consider the 15-minute Red night break test. Why would adding 15 minutes of much slower night time produce better flowering results, but adding it in all night produces a vegging plant?
I think this is because of some of the effects and counter-effects mentioned above. Adding the Red light reverses Pfr->Pr conversion (meaning it induces Pr->Pfr conversion), and Pr is necessary for flowering (part of the misc. processes). But, this happens only for 15 minutes and during that 15 minutes, a significant amount of photosynthetic energy was produced and is thereafter available for the rest of the night process to do even more work. Once the light is off and Pfr->Pr re-commences, the misc. processes will also re-commence, with the difference being the higher level of available energy.
On the other hand, if you add it in all night, the misc. processes have all the energy they'd need but they never get activated because of the suppression effect of Red on misc. processes.

This is my working guess, so please critique as you see fit!

I'm also taking my own advice... Yesterday I adjusted my flowering schedule again:
10 hours daylight (everything on)
7 hours Martian night (half of the Red LEDs and all RedIncs on)
6 hours SID (no light whatsoever)
1 hour Martian night (a daybreak period)

I also chopped the cheese plant. It was already at the full height of the cabinet and it hadn't even begun flowering, and the root problem got worse. In chopping it, I found out that the root problem was that it was rootbound (from being so tall) and putting it in a bigger container is not really an option so I guess that all worked out for the best.

[Dogznova]

Hi mother. I am getting different results between the red INC.'s and the red CFL's for some reason. I just wanted to put that in here now before I answer your AWESOME post above. This folks is the best thing about having a mother. They explain things in such a way that makes you feel like you actually understand it. I'm still confused a little but I think when I answer above mother will be able to put me in the right direction..LOL:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

My guess is because that while Blue light is present, the plant is geared toward vegging so that's what the photosynthesis energy is largely used for, rather than put toward flowering. If photosynthesis is added during the night, the vegging processes can't steal the energy so it's available for flowering.

My guesses as to why these effects occur (assuming Dog is talking about what happened after he and his uncle added Red fluoros to the night cycle):
1,2,3: Not sure about the stem elongation, but shortening the pre-flower time, the increased trichome production, and stimulated flower production is probably due to the extra available photosynthetic energy provided by the Red light.
4: Yes, I found this out too, and it is a nice bonus
5: More Blue means more vegging/photosynthesis and more Red means more photosynthesis so overall the plant should have way more available energy, however it decides to use it.
6: The Red actually slows down the clock with respect to night time (an all-Red night is waaaay slower than a completely dark night) but at the same time, the extra Red provides more photosynthetic energy that is available to the misc. processes that come directly afterward, so they are more productive. (More detail on this in a bit)

If you add the same amount of Far Red that mother nature does, then it would seem to the plants like around 14.4 hours.
SOD naturally provides Far Red (and therefore is more productive)
SID does not (and therefor is less productive)
If a 12 hour indoor night looks to the plant like a 10 hour outdoor night, then the time factor is 1.2 (12/10) based on the outdoor levels of Far Red light. Assuming those same levels are replicated indoors, the time factor would be the same, so 12 hours with Far Red would seem like 14.4 hours (12 x 1.2)

I'm still in the process of trying to figure out which spectrums have which effects, and I haven't yet brought in the idea of synergy between the spectrums, but I'm convinced that synergy is actually the most important feature of the Martian Method.

Consider the 15-minute Red night break test. Why would adding 15 minutes of much slower night time produce better flowering results, but adding it in all night produces a vegging plant?
I think this is because of some of the effects and counter-effects mentioned above. Adding the Red light reverses Pfr->Pr conversion (meaning it induces Pr->Pfr conversion), and Pr is necessary for flowering (part of the misc. processes). But, this happens only for 15 minutes and during that 15 minutes, a significant amount of photosynthetic energy was produced and is thereafter available for the rest of the night process to do even more work. Once the light is off and Pfr->Pr re-commences, the misc. processes will also re-commence, with the difference being the higher level of available energy.
On the other hand, if you add it in all night, the misc. processes have all the energy they'd need but they never get activated because of the suppression effect of Red on misc. processes.

This is my working guess, so please critique as you see fit!

I'm also taking my own advice... Yesterday I adjusted my flowering schedule again:
10 hours daylight (everything on)
7 hours Martian night (half of the Red LEDs and all RedIncs on)
6 hours SID (no light whatsoever)
1 hour Martian night (a daybreak period)

Photosynthesis is used to produce the results dictated by the Blue Clock, but Red/FR affects the clock speed (reading). Flower signals (mRNA) are produced at the end of the night (12/12), and the functions signalled are executed during the day and night (with or without immediate photosynthetic activity).

I always seems so simple once you understand BOTH the basics available to you at this time - Artificial Darkness Characteristics AND (Spectral) Time Rates. And you hit upon a very interesting point, SID is just that THE INDOOR STANDARD, and we have made it THE INDOOR DARKNESS TIME RATE STANDARD, e.i. THE TIME FACTOR OF SID IS 1.00 (100%). AND, your quantification of SID Based on SOD was practically the standardized method we use, but base things against SID not SOD (for the sake of Indoor Growers). So, roughly, we state that 12 hours (standard) SID being equal to 10 hours SOD gives us a Time Factor for SOD of 10/12= .8 (it takes .8 times as long as SID to do the same time work), the same answer, slightly different context. The Time Rate for SOD is 1.2 times that of SID. TIME RATE AND TIME FACTOR ARE INVERSELY related. We us Time Factors because they are easier to interpret for slower than SID spectrums, i.e. TIME FACTOR is how many times slower, whereas Time Rate is how many times faster.

So for any spectrum, to get a number of SID HOURS of work done,
REAL TIME = (SID TIME)*(TIME FACTOR).

(Note that slower Artificial Darkness spectrums with Time Factors larger than 2, cannot put 12 hours of SID activity in under 24 hours! BUT, using spectrums with Time Factors of less than 2, makes 24 hours day Martian Method growing possible. (Static Example, Dynamic is better but probably too complicated for average users.).

Giving you SID as a standard did mean much by itself, but you used relavence to quantify other Time Factors in relation to it, and in the process you have not only quantified a second spectrum time factor (time rate) against a know standard (we use SID, you used SOD), but you also NOW HAVE A STANDARDIZED SYSTEM OF QAUNTIFYING ANY SPECTRUM'S TIME FACTORS (i.e. time rates).

Consider this a major breakthrough in your progress, since NOW you have numbers that can be caluculated and summed to produce target timing schedules. (I how have a Afghani Crack Bubble Hash celebration excuse!)

10 hours daylight (everything on)
7 hours Martian night (half of the Red LEDs and all RedIncs on)
6 hours SID (no light whatsoever)
1 hour Martian night (a daybreak period)

Given that you want the equivalent of 12 hours SID, we can subtract out your actual SID time of 6 hours, so you only need the equivalent (AD) of 6 more SID hours. So, if you are making the spectrum fit the schedule, you'd need an AD spectrum with a Time Factor of arround 8/6 (AD/SID needed in hours), = 1.333. Photoperiodically/Photomorphogenically a larger AD time factor will give you veg results, while an equal AD time factor gives you optimul flowering, and a smaller AD time factor will induce ceasence (and then death) (from too long a night).

Excellent observation on the pre-flower time shortenning! I find myself forgetting about stretch as preflower, and without stretching the concept of preflowering losses a lot of significance, other than in terms of how long the early flowering processes take to convert to full flowering.

Self observation: I've already breached the Tech Gap to the point that I'm so comfortable with advantages of the Martian Method, that I'm already taking such advantages for granted (they now are expected, trusted).

[Dogznova]

OH my Friiiigggin God.. I know I ask for it.. I have know clue... I'm now lost for a few days...LOL:wtf:

[Dogznova]

Lets start here. How come SOD with far red is not the same time factor as SID with the same amount of far red. How come they are different? let's say the time we are measuring in both (SOD) and (SID) is 12 hours for this example.

[Dogznova]

[quote=salmayo]Given that you want the equivalent of 12 hours SID, we can subtract out your actual SID time of 6 hours, so you only need the equivalent (AD) of 6 more SID hours. So, if you are making the spectrum fit the schedule, you'd need an AD spectrum with a Time Factor of arround 8/6 (AD/SID needed in hours), = 1.333. Photoperiodically/Photomorphogenically a larger AD time factor will give you veg results, while an equal AD time factor gives you optimul flowering, and a smaller AD time factor will induce ceasence (and then death) (from too long a night).[QUOTE]

How did we flower with an (AD) time factor of 11/2 ? ......With alot less blue or no..

[Dogznova]

If plants outside are running .8 x faster then indoors. How do we speed up our indoor plants .8 to match outdoors.