First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"

[salmayo]

I had a hunch that the spectrum being used had something to do with with the timing schedule. We currently are using a 400w 2k spectrum with very little blue in it. With the type of plant we are using we are flowering with 23 hours of light.

I'm just not sure we are speeding up the clock enough during the day light hours to keep on pace with the clock being slowed in the artificial darkness time. Is this a concern we should have?

Our next plan of attack address this issue a little I think. But I would be curious to read what you have to say about speeding the clock up during the day light hours just to slow it down during the martin nights.:rasta:

We see the pattern of vegging up on leaves and roots before flower and then flowering out the yeild that these resources can produce. This is the norm.

As a Short Day Plant (SDP) Cannabis NEEDs long nights of uninterrupted darkness (natural or artificial) to flower and TRADITIONALLY up until now days were for photosynthesis.

I don't worry at all about how long the day is, the night keeps me worried enough night and day.

I do worry about the magnatude of the day in terms of Blue for root growth. To my perspective an equal number of KWH of Blue (500nm-) light during a "Day" to the KWH of Red (500nm+) light in a 24 hour cycle, is a ballanced spectrum (not that you need this ballance personally).

I speed the clock day and night for yield, for potency and thrills. I'm not trying to cram 24 perceptual hours into 24 virtual hours (anymore, been there done it, no need to keep doing it for flamboance sake, beautifull but expensive parlor trick). I'm just trying to sneak you 12 perceptual darkness hours into 24 virtual hours, because it's something everybody else can do to. (We put ourselves in the average growers shoes to figure out what they need from us. What we can do doesn't matter if others can't use it.)

Heya Sal, i don't envy your position in this. I believe you do have the answers we need. I understand your discrettion, but at this point I have to believe that we are still missing a pretty vital and substantial change in our experimental model that you can not disclose. I'm equating what your doing here to a warmer....colder....warmer (you know the one) game.

Hate the game. Hate the players. I do.

Look on the bright side, we'll probably go bust like most, having already gotten dissed on the Nobel Prize things are decending nicely, even had a backer ask if we could give him money (before he invested???).

I prefer the lab sans rat race.

But at least we still believe in Halloween, when you know people are putting you on.

Dogs nightbreak results (RED HOT). Mothers 24/12 run (colder) was the HARDEST LESSON (RED HOT).

And life would be easier if things weren't mixed. The hardest lessons make everything else easier ect. ect. (Warm this way, but cooler that).

Separating things helps (you), fixing the spectrum(s) then dialling the timers one step at a time. +Interval halfing saves steps.

The patent office has it's game, and it's awaiting game. So we wait, but we wait well. Till then, I console myself with offering Artificial Darkness to humanity, if only as food for thought.

We play the delay game and hope that some will use what they can NOW, maybe even try an option or two. The problem for you is too many choices, our problem is biding time in a market were "steal first" is corparate Americas only rule.

So while we're stuck in the provisional utility progression, you might want to check 24/12's last post, consider that 24 hours is enough to park a long Artificial Darkness night with some daylight to spare (even for 660nm).

At this point we have given you all you need to figure the first level out, which is how to make AD work on a 24 hour day to day cycle. Dog's first Nightbreak tests were successful (50 years ahead of his time, he saw it). If nothing else you have this, but mothers data is very important in that it demonstrates caution is still warranted.

Sal.... Have you ever seen this light. I saw it on ebay and the auction was going to end in 3 hours so I just used the old copy and paste mode for every one here too see. Is this some sort of martin night type led light?
By the way the price WAS $2,500 wow.

Vancouver Island Innovations Ltd.

Suite 159 H - Hillside Ave

Victoria B.C. Canada

V8T 2C1

Ph # 250 883 8825

Time Manipulation: From a 24 hour day to 18 hours, that is an extra crop a year!!!

PPF (photosynthetic Flux) or PAR (photosynthetic Active Radiation) 450 watts

Power Consumption: Currently the Mark 4.2a is running just under 500 watts The Mark 4.2a is 110 or 220 capable with the specs at 110 amps x 4.5 volts , and 220 amps x 2.25 volts

Delivering Power: Over 1100 Lumen Watts of light, outgrowing a 1000 Watt M/H in three weeks what a M/H could do in 4.5 weeks. WOW!!!

Coverage: 4' by 4' square, that's 16 square feet . Hang the light 18" - 24" away from plants.

Expected Lifespan: Mark 4.2a 100,000 hours,

They are available in two versions of light colour spectrum coverage at this time, the "Blue" or a Growing light and a "Red" Flowering light.

Blue Light: Current tests prove that the 60% blue and 40% red spec light an excellent light for vegetating plants. The tests show an average increase of 30 % growth, with more than 50 % less in power consumption than the competition, the traditional Metal Halide (1000 Watts).

Red Light: Current testing is being done to compare the efficiency of the 85% red, and 15 % blue spectrum for the flowering cycle.

These Black and White images above are showing the light spectrums of the High Pressure Sodium Lights, and the Mark 4 Light Emitting Diode is the last image.

The Mark 4.2 a LED Light of Today is even stronger, take a scroll down and see tests of what the Red and Blue lights are emitting now.

Light Cycles: The Mark 4.2a is computer controlled. This is a feature never before found in a grow light. This Exclusive LED Technology allows for detailed control of the energy stimulus your plants experience in every way. These models offer built in timing cycles for propagation, vegetative growth, transitional phasing to flower light cycles, or alternatively a traditional â??switchâ?� to flowering cycles. The Mark 4.2a also uses a LED control to stimulate the infrared found in nature, and to operate specific infrared light cycles which stimulate morphogenic metabolic activities related to fruiting and flowering. This device equipped with Infrared LED lighting technology, it is able to speed up the time clock from a 24 hour day to a 18, 20, or a 22 hour day. This means a farmer could get one or more crops in per year.

The Mark 4.2 products are offered with a 2 year Manufacturers Warranty. Extension on the Warranty is available.

How to load a program:

To initiate program immediately beginning light cycle, hold the on button until double or triple flashes.

Load program to initiate at next light cycle, hold the off button until double (or triple) flashes.

Rotary switch programming

Programs 0 -> 15, switch positions 0 -> F load with DOUBLE flash.

Switch Position Program

0 slave mode (momentary main bank on, push both switches; momentary IR on, push off switch)

1 24 hours on

2 22 hours on 2 hours off

3 20 hours on 4 hours off

4 19 hours on 5 hours off

5 18 hours on 6 hours off

6 17 hours on 7 hours off

7 16 hours on 8 hours off

8 15 hours on 9 hours off

9 14 hours on 10 hours off

A 12 hours on 12 hours off

B 10 hours on 14 hours off

C 24 hours off

D 24 hours, mains off, 24 hours Infrared on

E Demo, triple flash cycles with IR flashing 1/2 seconds

F Demo: 5 minute cycle: 2 minutes on, 1 minute of IR, 1 minute of dark, 1 minute of IR; Cycle again

Programs 16 -> 31, switch positions 0->f load with TRIPLE flash



0 18 hour day @ 12 hours light; 6 hours darkness, IR flash 1/2 sec on 1/2 sec off

1 18 hour day @ 12 hours light; 6 hours darkness, IR flash 1 sec on 1 sec off

2 18 hour day @ 12 hours light; 6 hours darkness, IR flash 2 sec on 2 sec off

3 18 hour day @ 12 hours light; 6 hours darkness, IR flash 4 sec on 4 sec off

4 20 hour day @ 12 hours light; 8 hours darkness, IR flash 1/2 sec on 1/2 sec off

5 20 hour day @ 12 hours light; 8 hours darkness, IR flash 1 sec on 1 sec off

6 20 hour day @ 12 hours light; 8 hours darkness, IR flash 2 sec on 2 sec off

7 20 hour day @ 12 hours light; 8 hours darkness, IR flash 4 sec on 4 sec off

8 22 hour day @ 12 hours light; 10 hours darkness, IR flash 1/2 sec on 1/2 sec off

9 22 hour day @ 12 hours light; 10 hours darkness, IR flash 1 sec on 1 sec off

A 22 hour day @ 12 hours light; 10 hours darkness, IR flash 2 sec on 2 sec off

B 22 hour day @ 12 hours light; 10 hours darkness, IR flash 4 sec on 4 sec off

C 24 hour day @ 12 hours light; 12 hours darkness, IR flash 1/2 sec on 1/2 sec off

D 24 hour day @ 12 hours light; 12 hours darkness, IR flash 1 sec on 1 sec off

E 24 hour day @ 12 hours light; 12 hours darkness, IR flash 2 sec on 2 sec off

F 24 hour day @ 12 hours light; 12 hours darkness, IR flash 4 sec on 4 sec off

These are not Martian Method Timers, we have disgarded timers over 24 hours as being too hard for the general public to schedule their lives arround. (You can use the Martian Method with 48+ timers, but we leave certain things like this to the more advanced home experimentors.)

Such extended timers were used originally to measure 660nm AD Time Factors, but running a 4 day syncroed mega timer isn't attractive to anything but an experimentor.

There was a link in one of the posts to a FAQ about extended days that relates nicely to this.

Gotta run.

Take Care, Sal.

[salmayo]

Where can I get an Uncle like this...

Hi everyone. I was going to save this but here it goes. My uncle has been flowering a clone under an old 250hps unit he has for the past three weeks and get this. He is using this light cycle..... Are You Ready!!!!!...... 6 hours on 6 hours off and 6 hours back on again then 6 hours off. LOL... This is his light cycle for 24 hours. To my surprise the clone is flowering normal as can be.. He also is doing another clone under some t5's on this silly schedule. 3 on 3 off 3 on 3 off for the first 12 hours and then this light schedule repeats itself. Talk about funny. This plant is also flowering but the leaves look kind of different. I think it's the light coming on and off so many times doing this to the plant (not sure though). This light schedule is not to economical for an HID light IMO... You think..lol

What this has told my uncle and I is that plants calculate light in a 24 time frame. It don't matter to the plants what time of the day they recive it's light source just as long as the light on time doesn't go over the time frame for flowering. Did that make sense.

Didn't make sense to me at first ether..LOL SAAALLLLLLL help..

The lower amount of Blue in the spectrum and subcanopy effects will let you get away with certain things more than others. We don't rely specifically on these effects, but they all count in the final clock tunes.

We still think the long night convention holds (at least for the blue durations and lack thereof). But, hey, If you come up with something better than what we have, we'll retire and you can be king weirdo (the pay stinks, here take the funny hat, TAKE IT!). imp: :thumbsup:

We base our system on 660nm lessons, and we use 6/6 - 3/3 type schedules for vegging, but tend to use only one Blue duration per 24 hours. 660nm being the hardest spectrum to flower Cannabis under, everything else works better, we account for this but avoid dependence on it.

Blue intensity and duration are factors, but above 10 Watts/foot, Blue should be fully triggering "day" for the plant, unless genetics are of the autoflowering or ultra early nature.

I would test samples for potency and morphology, I'm revegged some big fluffy looking buds, that had no potency, but still looked coverred in trichomes (full of low potency resins).

If this is the same plant that was flowering under 23 hours 2K a day, genes could be a factor.

I think a normal flower type Cannabis plant would reveg under that spectrum.

Either way the results will be interesting. (If 6/6 flowers well, you can have Earth, we'll stay on Mars.)

Also we've done a lot of testing with HID, and HPS is less sensitive than MH, but it still wares out the bulbs faster to run more than one start-up per day (bulb lifespan is defined in regards to number of start-ups predicted).

Also we've leaned away from multiple Blue durations and intervals for vegging and flowering due to Hermie considerations, but I still beat mine up plenty while testing potential moms and dads for breeding stock.

Take Care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

I speed the clock day and night for yield, for potency and thrills. I'm not trying to cram 24 perceptual hours into 24 virtual hours (anymore, been there done it, no need to keep doing it for flamboance sake, beautifull but expensive parlor trick). I'm just trying to sneak you 12 perceptual darkness hours into 24 virtual hours, because it's something everybody else can do to. (We put ourselves in the average growers shoes to figure out what they need from us. What we can do doesn't matter if others can't use it.

Ok, I think I understand, but we still want to know how to speed up the clock. It's one of the final pieces of the puzzel..LOL.. I know, I know, just like my uncle says (damm Kids). I seen your new 24/12 post on martin nights slowing down the plant.

I guess a good question now should be. Is that light above correct. IR and not FR for the plant clock?

But at least we still believe in Halloween, when you know people are putting you on..

Sal... We will all be waiting for sure. I will be glad to help you out in any way I can...

Separating things helps (you), fixing the spectrum(s) then dialling the timers one step at a time. +Interval halfing saves steps...

This will be my next question sooon.

So while we're stuck in the provisional utility progression, you might want to check 24/12's last post, consider that 24 hours is enough to park a long Artificial Darkness night with some daylight to spare (even for 660nm)....

Yes sal.... I went and checked your 24/12 page out. Thanks for the post:thumbsup:. I think I understand a little better now. More then likely I shouldn't need to fill all of the martin night with artifecial light. We should be able to have plenty of time to shift the spectrum and have natural darkness in the same 12 hour cycle... OH my, did I just give away a clue:jointsmile:

These are not Martian Method Timers, we have disgarded timers over 24 hours as being too hard for the general public to schedule their lives arround. (You can use the Martian Method with 48+ timers, but we leave certain things like this to the more advanced home experimentors.)

OMG that's crazy 48+ timers LOL. I though the 10 my uncle has now was insane. WOW 48

There was a link in one of the posts to a FAQ about extended days that relates nicely to this

Yes, I posted that link. "That's what this light is doing". Ok I see... That makes sense now.

[Dogznova]

The lower amount of Blue in the spectrum and subcanopy effects will let you get away with certain things more than others. We don't rely specifically on these effects, but they all count in the final clock tunes.

Ya I told my uncle (you try that 6 on 6 off then 6 back on stuff) with a new MH light and chances are that plant probably won't flower that well if at all. Bag seed, not a chance IMO. That 250 hps is about 15 years old. It came out of the rookie closet. It probably has 5% blue left in it. LOL

We still think the long night convention holds (at least for the blue durations and lack thereof). But, hey, If you come up with something better than what we have, we'll retire and you can be king weirdo (the pay stinks, here take the funny hat, TAKE IT!). imp: :thumbsup:

I got to show him this post. His eyes are bad so I'm going to have to print this out for him.. You should see the funny hat he wears NOW. OMG lol lol
You can guarantee he won't come up with something better then you and your partner have..

Blue intensity and duration are factors, but above 10 Watts/foot, Blue should be fully triggering "day" for the plant, unless genetics are of the autoflowering or ultra early nature.

I'm taking note on this...."Blue (intensity) and (duration) are factors"
just like outside.

ultra early nature.... This is the type we are working with..Borderline autoflowering/early.

I would test samples for potency and morphology, I'm revegged some big fluffy looking buds, that had no potency, but still looked coverred in trichomes (full of low potency resins).

Not sure the light is going to last long enough with this abuse to test any of it. I wouild expect it to be junk anyway the light is 15 years old. JMO

If this is the same plant that was flowering under 23 hours 2K a day, genes
could be a factor.

This we need to talk about soon...

I think a normal flower type Cannabis plant would reveg under that spectrum.

I think we are right on the edge now.

Either way the results will be interesting. (If 6/6 flowers well, you can have Earth, we'll stay on Mars.)

No way, I'm going to Mars also !!!! Earth, well you know.

It will be interesting to see as well. But he was just trying too see if it would work. It had something to do with an article he read a long time ago in a HT magazine about the plant using all 24 hours of the light then possessing it for the next day. Way to much for me to explain lol. Like you said looks can be deceiving.. But so far It looks ok. The t5's do look like the plant is starting to morph or something.

Also we've done a lot of testing with HID, and HPS is less sensitive than MH, but it still wares out the bulbs faster to run more than one start-up per day (bulb lifespan is defined in regards to number of start-ups predicted).

Yes I would think it's not very economical to turn on and off HID lights that many times a month. I bet that bulb he is doing that to might not even last the whole 10 weeks lol.

Also we've leaned away from multiple Blue durations and intervals for vegging and flowering due to Hermie considerations, but I still beat mine up plenty while testing potential moms and dads for breeding stock.

This is funny. I said that to him.. "I bet this plant turns into a hermie"....He called me a rookie...He hates Hermie's

[Dogznova]

Sal..... I'm one who believes very firmly that the more you give the more you receive.. I 100% believe you "shall receive" my friend.. Thanks for your time. I truly mean this. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

We base our system on 660nm lessons,

Some people take guitar lessons. Some take drum lessons.
I want to take 660nm lessons. Were do I sign up.:rasta:

[thedudeman]

I did some thinking about what i was talking about making the red/far-red ratio reversely proportional from day to night and it stinks. Just cause its night doesn't mean the plant changes the way it metabolizes the light it recieves.

I think i was just missing the point that the relatively small amount of Far-red you need (ie: 15-20% for instance) just becomes more difficult to provide without involving a background spectrum. (no blue at night of course or revegging could result)

Sorry if i was missing the boat there. I've posted at Sal's site (finally got back there) And read until i really got the jest of what he was saying.

Thanks Sal for your help. Really appreciate it. :thumbsup:

[Mother]

I have a new conception of how the light spectra interact with the plant. (My new best guess.) More information from all of you (dude, dog, sal) has made me re-arrange my puzzle pieces again and the picture makes a lot more sense, so hopefully itâ??s actually a better understanding...

I think the conception of â??triggeringâ?� any biological process was getting in my way. If it really is â??all relativeâ?� then grouping light spectra and plant processes makes the most sense to me. For light, Iâ??m thinking blue (~300-500nm), red (500-700?) and far red (720?-800?) and for biological processes, Iâ??m thinking vegging (leaf, branch, root, etc. development), photosynthesis (energy-making), and misc. (various other processes that include â??floweringâ?�).

(Note: Pr is phytochrome that is only sensitive to Red light, and Pfr is phytochrome that is only sensitive to Far Red light. Each one changes to the other upon being exposed to light that it is sensitive to. Additionally, Pfr naturally converts to Pr in darkness until some equilibrium is reached.)

If I guess what effect each spectrum of light (B/R/FR) would have on each biological processâ?¦

Blue:
Vegging: increases (perhaps by co-opting something? Because it seems exclusive)
Photosynthesis: increases
Misc.: prevents flowering (via vegging?)

Red:
Vegging: little/no effect?
Photosynthesis: increases
Misc.: decreases (Pr/Pfr competition?)

Far red (or complete darkness):
Vegging: little/no effect?
Photosynthesis: little/no effect?
Misc.: increases (Pr/Pfr competition?)

I picture each of these processes running at a faster or slower rate, depending on spectra. This is why I think the idea of triggering was getting in my way. To get the plant to flower, it only needs sufficient â??flowering activityâ?� (Iâ??m thinking rate and duration), but since blue light prevents it, the plant needs nighttime for that to happen. At night, the plant canâ??t perform photosynthesis so it can flower for a while, but eventually runs out of energy, which it re-charges during the day. This all takes place at a natural rate based on the sun, so this is the baseline Iâ??ll use for comparison. The idea of speeding up or slowing down the plantâ??s perceived clock is the speeding up or slowing down of the rate of these processes relative to what the plant naturally expects (or requires, as in Blue lightâ??s absence being necessary for flowering). During the day, the plant usually receives a certain ratio of B:R:FR, that varies over the seasons but is relatively stable day-to-day. We flower at 12/12 because thatâ??s how long darkness takes to produce the level of flowering we are happy with. HPS works better than fluoro even at similar intensities because thereâ??s way more FR in HPS, meaning the misc. processes are running faster all day and have a â??head startâ?� into the night.

Speeding up the plantâ??s day means making the processes that happen during the day happen faster, which is vegging and photosynthesis. Since they already get a large amount of Blue and Red light, itâ??s hard to make that go much faster except the misc. processes provide some important benefits that are limiting factors (I remember sal saying something about the plantâ??s equivalent to heem).

â??Speeding upâ?� the plantâ??s night means making the misc. processes happen faster (because thatâ??s what naturally happens at night), but the limiting factor is still energy. So if we introduce Red light, it provides energy but slows down the misc. process, so we have to add Far Red to compensate, or allow for some total darkness. The closer the light is to 660nm, the more it suppresses the misc. processes (because Pr is most sensitive at ~660?) so the shorter the wavelength the better, down to around 500 because that will increase photosynthesis while minimizing the decrease of the misc. processes and avoid increasing the vegging process.

The key to the Martian Method would be finding the right balance. You want enough vegging to support the plant, enough photosynthesis to drive everything (presumably as fast as possible), and enough of the misc. processes to provide necessary things (perhaps hormones?) critical to flowering.

I could (and probably should) go on explaining what I'm picturing, but itâ??s late and Iâ??m tired and should have been doing more pressing things the whole time. :-/

Also, please keep in mind that in order to convey my level of certainty on all of this, I'd have to write "maybe" or "perhaps" or "could be" on every sentence. That's very tiresome (so I don't) but that's what I would have to do... And as always, Iâ??m sure this is an oversimplification.

[AfricanAlien]

I read this statment originally on the Perfect LED Grow by physicsnole

And i have not seen any direct reply to this statement. Would this work?

Flower with shorter Nights

There are another pair of pigments involved in things here - phytochrome-R and Phytochrome-FR. Phyto-R is most sensitive at 660nm Red, while phyto-FR is most sensitive at about 730nm Far-Red, hence the R and FR naming (IE, JUST 735nm and very near wavelengths, but nothing under 710nm or so). With 735nm far-red/near-infrared emitters available then it's possible to flower cannabis with 15 hours 'daylight'. How? Why? Well, the plant senses that critical 12-hours-darkness that triggers flowering in cannabis because a critical amount of phytochrome-FR has slowly, naturally, reverted to phytochrome-R during the dark cycle. But during the 'day' 660nm red light converts the phyto-R into phyto-FR, while far-red 735nm light more slowly converts the phyto-FR back to phyto-R. So we run all lights for 15 hours, then run nothing but 735nm for another two hours and finally 7 hours darkness.- artificially driving much of the phyto-FR back to phyto-R without waiting 12 hours for the natural reversion- so you can actually flower with shorter nights.

That's 30% more light per day reaching the plant, the result is that we can pump 25%-30% more energy into the plant each day - that means 25%-30% more growth - during the flowering cycle. Pushing even longer is probably possible, with sufficient intensity of 735nm alone during some portion of the 'dark' cycle. Several experiments have already documented this effect.

[salmayo]

I guess a good question now should be. Is that light above correct. IR and not FR for the plant clock?

Yes sal.... I went and checked your 24/12 page out. Thanks for the post:thumbsup:. I think I understand a little better now. More then likely I shouldn't need to fill all of the martin night with artifecial light. We should be able to have plenty of time to shift the spectrum and have natural darkness in the same 12 hour cycle... OH my, did I just give away a clue:jointsmile:

Not ruling out IR effects, but FR seems to be the better one to go with at the moment (Martian Science changes with progress).

I think it was "in the same 24 hour cycle...", I am typo king after all.

Trading slower AD spectrum time for ND/SID time, looks like the best starting place for first timers. Even the Martian NightBreak Test trades 15 for 15 minutes to start with. Once people get that you can't just trade hour for hour with different forms of Darkness, we think they'll get what they need to enbrace the power of the information here.

Another hurdle is that 12 hours of SID to us, looks like 10 hours SOD (Standard Outdoor Darkness) to the plant, but people are caught on 12 hours darkness (12/12) and uncomfortable with other (too) COMPLICATED methods or schedules.

(Write a book they tell me... ...like I'm too bored or something.)

Sal..... I'm one who believes very firmly that the more you give the more you receive.. I 100% believe you "shall receive" my friend.. Thanks for your time. I truly mean this. :thumbsup:

Thanks Dog. I'm stressin on this one a lot. It's a tightrope.