Obama Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth

[Psycho4Bud]

unions aren't the only answer...the government can do better things to encourage domestic job development by reducing the profit incentive of exporting jobs to foreign countries

Great point...that's called lowering the capital gains tax.

Have a good one!:s4:

[maladroit]

"Supply dictates the cost of a product."

- not if the product is oil...what about demand? cost of labour/manufacturing/parts? in traditional economic theory, price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand curves...these days, i'm not so sure


"If he had another hand helping him then Joe could take on more business."

- *IF* there is demand...otherwise, joe could hire 100 extra people and take on all the business in the surrounding 1000 square miles


"If taxes are raised 3-6% then at best.. BEST job creations will come to a dead slow crawl or a halt altogether."

- if joe had extra demand and was turning away customers, but taxes depleted his cash reserves, he could borrow money to cover the additional salary, and the money the new employee earned would pay back the bank loan plus a tidy profit for joe and more tax revenue for the government...increased demand is a win-win-win situation


i like joe...y'know he just came out and endorsed mccain? celebrity endorsements work!

[Psycho4Bud]

buying more equipment to increase productivity makes sense, but as productivity increases due to new equipment, fewer employees are required to do the same work so joe the plumber and max the media tycoon will be firing people and pocketing the difference

Joe the plumber is buying trucks, inventory, tools, and advertising. Now he needs people behind the trucks and hopefully a few new receptionists to get the calls.

Have a good one!:s4:

[daihashi]

"Supply dictates the cost of a product."

- not if the product is oil...what about demand? cost of labour/manufacturing/parts? in traditional economic theory, price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand curves...these days, i'm not so sure

Yes it does.. Currently there is an overwhelming supply of oil with very few buyers since just about everyone in the world has cut back on their oil consumption. This is why Oil has plummeted to in the $60 range.

Not sure about where you live but here in Texas the price of gas has dropped off about $1 from where it was a month ago. Hell we even went through a Hurricane and costs are still down.

It seems to me that supply/demand is still working.

"If he had another hand helping him then Joe could take on more business."

- *IF* there is demand...otherwise, joe could hire 100 extra people and take on all the business in the surrounding 1000 square miles

You don't make demand by putting $10 into people's pockets every week. Demand is created when people have more disposable income. $10 is hardly either worth investing nor could you call it disposable.

Creating new jobs and putting people who were currently making an income of $0 is how you stimulate demand. Create a new workforce out of those unemployed. More people you have making money then the more people you have spending money.

Demand doesn't just make itself.. and demand doesn't come out of people who are unemployed or if companies are not hiring new employees/giving out pay raises.

"If taxes are raised 3-6% then at best.. BEST job creations will come to a dead slow crawl or a halt altogether."

- if joe had extra demand and was turning away customers, but taxes depleted his cash reserves, he could borrow money to cover the additional salary, and the money the new employee earned would pay back the bank loan plus a tidy profit for joe and more tax revenue for the government...increased demand is a win-win-win situation

You miss the point here all together. If hiring comes to a halt.. there is not going to be demand, making the borrowing moot all together because without demand then there is no need to hire. Raising taxes will cause businesses to put on the brakes and maybe even cut jobs; why do you ask? Because a businesses job is to protect the health of the business and it's investors first and foremost. Raising taxes is just like asking for a way to further slow the economy.

Supply dictates the cost of a product while demand drives the need for supply.

Why not kill two birds with one stone and lower taxes. It will counteract the increasing unemployment rate.. giving more disposable income.. which will drive up demand for products...which will drive up the need to better supply the products... which will in turn raise the need for more assets/equipment/manpower to put out the supply.... which creates more jobs.. which creates more disposable income... which helps demand for products/services go up... which creates the need to increase supply.. which increases the need to get more assets/equipment/manpower to put out the supply...

As you can see it's an endless cycle.. Please show me where raising taxes will create the same positive perpetual cycle.

i like joe...y'know he just came out and endorsed mccain? celebrity endorsements work!

I'm not even sure why we're talking about Joe.. I never even brought him up. I mentioned a hypothetical involving a kid on a paper route but I'm glad you like Joe.


FYI, you do realize that several times through our discussion you've indirectly agreed with me. P4B has pointed out a few of those instances.

[JaySin]

If someone is making over $250,000 and they are not having a surplus of money every year, then there is something wrong with how they are spending their money. There should be no reason for them to need to lay off any employees just cause they can't afford to run one of their ten fountains in the back yard or whatever rediculous things that might add up to having to spend that much.

It all sounds good in writing. We give them their tax cut, they use it to improve their business, so in turn they need more employees and can produce more product or provide more services. That or they already have a good business running, and they use the extra profit to lower prices of their goods and services.

Holy crap, we all just won big off of that idea.

The problem I see is this...

The companies see this extra money come in and say "Hey, I've become bored of my $250,00 (or more) a year lifestyle, let's kick it up a notch" My business doesn't need updating or any prices lowered, cause people are already paying the prices and I'm makeing profit, so who cares.

Oh crap, you're telling me that I was doing bad business practices? Well, my business is so huge that if it drowns, lots of people will lose jobs and it could hurt the economy. Come on government, you HAVE to bail me out. What would you do without me? Then come next election maybe you can lower our taxes a little more and help me "improve my business".

Now if you give that tax cut to the lower income population then they will be able to spend more money on the things that are already higher cost. So with these people spending more money, the businesses will probably see the same profit after taxes even though the taxes went up. Hell, maybe they'll even increase their profit.

[daihashi]

If someone is making over $250,000 and they are not having a surplus of money every year, then there is something wrong with how they are spending their money. There should be no reason for them to need to lay off any employees just cause they can't afford to run one of their ten fountains in the back yard or whatever rediculous things that might add up to having to spend that much.

The business makes 250k.. which is used for further expansion of the company. The reason is not for you to determine; it is for the business and investors to determine. Your perception of what is rightand wrong is just that.. your perception and nothing more.

A business is entitled to make profit and protect it's investors. You don't seem to be able to grasp this concept.

It all sounds good in writing. We give them their tax cut, they use it to improve their business, so in turn they need more employees and can produce more product or provide more services. That or they already have a good business running, and they use the extra profit to lower prices of their goods and services.

Holy crap, we all just won big off of that idea.

The problem I see is this...

The companies see this extra money come in and say "Hey, I've become bored of my $250,00 (or more) a year lifestyle, let's kick it up a notch" My business doesn't need updating or any prices lowered, cause people are already paying the prices and I'm makeing profit, so who cares.

Oh crap, you're telling me that I was doing bad business practices? Well, my business is so huge that if it drowns, lots of people will lose jobs and it could hurt the economy. Come on government, you HAVE to bail me out. What would you do without me? Then come next election maybe you can lower our taxes a little more and help me "improve my business".

You're really reaching for something to grab onto here. You are making the assumption that all businesses have bad business practices when that is not true at all. Also a number of people who created the situation you're describing are currently advising Obama or the people who pressured the financial institutions to give out sub prime loans that helped to sink the market occurred is the same party that is proposing cutting taxes for the middle class (which is a red herring. You won't actually see much of a change from pay check to paycheck).

That is an argument for another time.. back to your assumption. You cannot make tax changes or legislative changes based on what you speculate.

This is the same as arresting someone because you THINK they'll murder someone.

Again your arguments point to what you think will happen from a personal standpoint as opposed to how things typically work when viewed from a business stance.

That's not to say it's not plausible.. but it's not likely either and you can't constantly speculate otherwise. If you did then nothing would ever get done.

Now if you give that tax cut to the lower income population then they will be able to spend more money on the things that are already higher cost. So with these people spending more money, the businesses will probably see the same profit after taxes even though the taxes went up. Hell, maybe they'll even increase their profit.

Maybe you didn't see my other posts where I did the math but here.. I'll do it again.

At the low end of the spectrum people making about 18k/year will see a tax reduction of $567/year From Obama's tax plan... Which comes out to roughly $11/week less that you are paying taxes on.

At around 66k Obama plans to cut taxes by $1042/year.. this comes out to be roughly $20/week.

So tell me.. how is this going to spur the economy?

Now tell me... How is a company that was making 100-200 million a year that get's 6% of it's profits ripped away from it due to new taxes going to react?

Which one has the bigger impact on the economy?

[maladroit]

"Yes it does.. Currently there is an overwhelming supply of oil with very few buyers since just about everyone in the world has cut back on their oil consumption. This is why Oil has plummeted to in the $60 range."

- the price of oil is less than half it was five months ago, but the world is not consuming 50% less oil...prior to that, the price of oil increased by 600% since the invasion of iraq but the world wasn't consuming six times as much oil...supply and demand are not driving the price of oil as much as speculation


"Demand doesn't just make itself.. and demand doesn't come out of people who are unemployed or if companies are not hiring new employees/giving out pay raises....If hiring comes to a halt.. there is not going to be demand, making the borrowing moot all together because without demand then there is no need to hire."

- demand is usually stable if employment levels are stable...if hiring comes to a halt, demand will be relatively constant


"Raising taxes is just like asking for a way to further slow the economy."

- raising the national debt is just like asking for a way to further slow the economy too...that has to be dealt with SOON


"Supply dictates the cost of a product while demand drives the need for supply. "

- you got the theory half right:
Economics Basics: Demand and Supply


"you do realize that several times through our discussion you've indirectly agreed with me."

- sure i agree with you sometimes...i'm not a total asshole! there's lots of smart folks here and i've been set straight a few times...it's all good

[silkyblue]

I dont want or need Obamas precious money

tell the govenment to give % back those tax brakes are a joke
to the rich!


lower heating cost, legalise weed, make food affordable, dont make peeps
eat crap and for heavens sake,
legalise the plant


I can sell and clear 12 grand a month!

If I could sell?


this ones the kicker

Now if you give that tax cut to the lower income population then they will be able to spend more money on the things that are already higher cost. So with these people spending more money, the businesses will probably see the same profit after taxes even though the taxes

Thats giving the rich too many Wahu-Mart shoppin bags

greedy ass country

[McDanger]

This is one of those so called "greedy" business owners.

Mr. Obama,

Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself. While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses. But first, let me introduce myself. You can call me â??Cory the well drillerâ?�. I am a 54-year-old high school graduate. I didnâ??t go to college like you, I was too ready to go â??conquer the worldâ?� when I finished high school. 25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80â??s oil boom. I didnâ??t get any help from the government, nor did I look for any. I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawnshop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job. My businesses did not start not a result of privilege. It is the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self-discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly. From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job. I couldnâ??t afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels. I had to use my 10-year-old, ½-ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck).

A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area. I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs. Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills. I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes. I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second timeâ?¦ $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D. Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure. I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all.

I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas. 2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling. Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2. 5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine. I had designed the machine myself, and it didnâ??t work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine. No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night, as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills. Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business.

2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig. This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans. Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me. For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business.

A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs. I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off. Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem. I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps. With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.

Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business. I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months). How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty. I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas. Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so an employee and I (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customersâ?? pumps, practically from coast to coast. I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister). I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturersâ?? product lines, and paying back credit cards. During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews. Also, the screen service business continued to grow. No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but thatâ??s ok, I didnâ??t expect any, nor did I want any. I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me.

Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy. Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop. The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide. Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well. This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months. This should work out, but if it doesnâ??t it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our countryâ??sâ?? (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get mortgages. You see, at the very time when I couldnâ??t get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit. Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets). While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans. Itâ??s funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country.

You see, Mr. Obama, Iâ??m the guy you intend to raise taxes on. Iâ??m the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead. Iâ??m the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didnâ??t want to take a risk, and wouldnâ??t demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself. Iâ??m the guy you characterize as â??the Americans who can afford it the mostâ?� that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution â??to spread the wealthâ?� to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything. You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture. I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career. Whatâ??s worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves. Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land.

What is so terribly sad about this is this. America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self-reliance, self-motivation, self-determination, self-discipline, personal betterment, and hard work, risk taking. A culture built around the concept that success was in reach on every able bodied American who would strive for it. Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together. We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states. If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance. You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them. When people act on such ideals, they succeed. All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating. But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldnâ??t it, Mr. Obama? The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government. You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country. It is the very business of liberals to create an ever-expanding dependence on government. Whatâ??s remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldnâ??t need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.

You see, I know because Iâ??ve had them work for me before. Hundreds of them over these 25 years. People who simply will not show up to work on time. People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days. People always looking for a way to put less effort out. People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more. People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?). You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.

Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate. Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again. You see, Iâ??ve seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office - can you pronounce â??politically motivatedâ?�); you averaged of less than 1% annually. And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ¼% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years. Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone elseâ??s money you are giving to them. I wonâ??t say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you or Joe Biden (donâ??t you just hate goggle?). Tell me again how you feel my pain.

In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country. You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self-reliance; Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement; Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated; Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate. If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems. Like all of western Europe. All countries on the decline. All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.

God help usâ?¦

Cory Miller

just a ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.

P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real Americanâ?¦

[silkyblue]

yeah you got took dude but thats alot of money your talking then getting behind dint help the situation

I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes. I

live and learn I imagine you will recover in the future


Why is Barack to blame? I missed it