"LOL, so now we are debating about profit? I thought it was that UAW represented companies were failing (bankruptcy concern), and your position was that it is not caused by the UAW."

- they wouldn't be failing if they were making a profit, and they wouldn't have been profitable over the past four years even if they cut wages and benefits to match toyota



"You claim that it is management, so i asked you why a company that runs a tight ship in Germany cannot produce the same results in the US? Do you care to answer?"

- daimler can produce the same results in the usa and they do at their mercedes plant in alabama...they can't turn chrysler into daimler overnight by buying stock and sending a few german executives to detroit...it takes years to retrain management, retrain workers, retrain dealers, redirect suppliers, redesign cars, retool factories, etc...they also have to deal with the comparitively poor goodwill that is attached to american cars...in addition, they are competing more directly with the other two US automakers who price reduced themselves to the point of bankruptcy



"An examination of both GM and Toyota's books show something quite remarkable. There is a $15 billion dollar difference in labor cost even though they have a similar production output (roughly 10 million vehicles per year)."

- wow...that would be remarkable if toyota wasn't paying most of it's employees in yen and other asian currencies



"Say's law becomes important. Supply creates its own demand. Do you understand?"

- i don't accept that supply creates its own demand...if it did, excess inventory would be good



"Cost gap does not = labor cost gap... The only person to bring up a $4,000 labor cost gap was you. "

- check your link...the $4000 labour cost gap was clearly identified in the article you linked here:
UAW deal puts GM on Toyota's heels; Agreement pares labor gap to $800 per vehicle. (01-OCT-07) Automotive News


"Labor cost is only part of the problem. Liabilities owed to unions is another. If Toyota had to operate under this constraint, they would be going under as well."

- general motors has the most overfunded pension fund in the industry, and they're tapping into it to keep themselves afloat:
Allan Sloan - GM's High-Performance Pension Machine - washingtonpost.com



"Toyota does not have to buy a union worker out."

- i think they have to in japan, and maybe even in the usa too...just because toyota's US employees are not in a union doesn't mean they don't have employment contracts and benefit plans...the neighbourhood pub prime rib dinner special is calling my name so i don't have time to look it up



"GM had over $461,000,000,000 in total liabilities in 2005, compared to Toyota's $154,000,000,000. Nice try, better luck next time..."

- toyota has more liabilities than GM right now...gm had more liabilities in 2005 but they magically wiped out over $240 billion in long term liabilities without affecting the income/cash statements...under the same conditions and with the same $73/hour wage, toyota would have still generated a profit



"Can you debate without taking things out of context or resorting to fallacies?"

- perhaps we could agree to debate and leave the snarky comments aside...i enjoy discussing financial stuff with you and i don't want it to lean towards nasty
maladroit Reviewed by maladroit on . bailout plan may widen to more industries Wide array of U.S. companies start competing for bailout money Published: Sunday, October 26, 2008 | 2:20 PM ET Canadian Press: Martin Crutsinger, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON - The bailout is now the hottest lobbying game in town. Insurers, automakers and American subsidiaries of foreign banks all want the Treasury Department to cut them a piece of the largest government rescue in U.S. history. The betting is that many with their hands out will be successful, especially with Rating: 5