Quote Originally Posted by maladroit
i will never be able to refute your claim to your satisfaction, just as you will never be able to convince me that US automakers wouldn't be in trouble if it weren't for unions...
It has nothing to do with my satisfaction, you have not offered one bit of proof.

the US automakers were making money when car sales were increasing, and they were losing money when car sales were decreasing...unions have little or nothing to do with car sales...
Care to explain why Toyota is not facing the same consequences?

since north american workers have superior productivity, $73 per hour isn't much of a disadvantage when only 15 - 30 hours of labour goes into making a car...
That is correct, north American auto workers have high productivity, even the ones employed in Toyota plants across the US. The overhead gap between GM and Toyota is considerable, although their productivity levels are similar.

japanese and german made cars cost more and americans are still buying them because they are better cars...
Subjective Fallacy. Over the long run, Toyota produces the best car for the price. The main reason they are able to do so is because of significantly less overhead! Repeat after me, Toyota has less overhead.

i might agree with you if you could blame the US automakers management decisions and vehicle quality on unions
You are correct in one aspect, management made the decision to cut out specific costs that reduce the overall quality of the vehicle's. While this may be a serious mistake, it was made on behalf of cost analysis because there is no way to compete with both the price and quality at which Toyota can. Again, this is due to what????? Repeat after me, Toyota having less overhead.

if us autoworkers average wage dropped to $48 per hour tomorrow morning, and the us automobile manufacturers pass the entire $750 labour savings along to the consumer (based on 30 hours labour per car), people would still be buying more expensive japanese and german cars because they're better...THAT is the main problem with the US auto industry, not unions
ROFL, you must be high on something other than dro! If labor input costs were reduced by 20%, what effect would that have on the price? GM has been selling their vehicles at a loss. Regardless of whether or not Toyota gained market share, GM would still have been able to make a profit the last few years if their input labor costs were %20 less.

i refute your assertion that unions are the problem and provide an alternate example...that's not a straw man
The following quote is a straw man...

if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents!
Why??? Because it was your reply to this statement:

No it is the Unions. Why does Toyota have no problem placing manufacturing plants throughout the midwest? They are non union, therefore they do not have to deal with the overhead discrepancy. Why else is GM buying out employees?
Instead of facing up, you attempted to distort my position on the grounds of German auto unions, probably because you believed them to be larger, more costly, nice. My position and premise are concerned with the UAW, not all unions. Germany's auto unions seem to be working just fine in Germany. Since you barked up this tree...

Chrysler, formerly majority owned by Daimler AG (until 2007), the same Daimler AG that produces Mercedes, was reporting billions of dollars in losses. Yet they were still able to make a profit in Germany.

Why was Daimler able to make a profit in Germany, but take a major loss in the US??? Similarly, why is Toyota able to make a profit in the US, but Daimler unable?

Afraid to answer?

here is a better example of a straw man fallacy:
i claim that unions aren't the problem, and you claim that i am distorting your position with a straw man fallacy...you are distorting my position
Your position is that foreign auto companies are better! What does that have to do with anything? Why is it that only the auto companies in the US market that are UAW represented are facing losses? Given the history of your POV, your position is a tad bit subjective wouldn't you say?