Quote Originally Posted by maladroit
i'll explain straw man to you again: if i replied to your assertion that american labour costs more by saying that your assertion was based on your hatred of the working middle class american, that would be a distortion of what YOU said...if i say that germans get more vacations and are paid a higher wage, it's not a distortion of anything you said
Wikipedia might not be the best place to reference logical fallacies, but lets give it a shot:thumbsup:

Person G: Position X= Unions are ruining the US Auto companies. Premise X= Toyota is non union, but still operates in the US.

Person M: Position Y (distored version of position X)= German auto unions are strong, and so are the companies that they represent. Premise Y= Vacations, etc...

You were unable to refute my claim, so instead of fessing up to it, you compared them to German auto makers and their union because you believed it to be an easy target.



the link didn't work so you didn't see the entire article...the 16,000 workers who are on the new low pay are the ones who are currently working at GM and are immediately eligible...65% of unionized employes at GM are eligible for retirement now, and 75% will be eligible by 2011...GM will be handing out incentives to encourage retirement, and significantly reduce it's average labour cost over the next few years:
Financial > 2007 GM ΓΆβ?¬β?? UAW Labor Agreement - The Automotive Lyceum
The reduction of pay to those 16,000 workers amounts to a reduction of 12$/hr on all GM factory employees. This is still noticably more than the $48/hr Toyota pays. Care to respond to this?

Again, your article did nothing but refute your claim. It proves that the UAW has had a strangle hold on GM. Had they done this ten years ago, GM would not be blowing through their cash as they are now.

the contracts were renegotiated and gm might not survive another six months anyway
In what year were they renegotiated? And.... Does Toyota's US facilities have similar overhead?

that's not a straw man at all because it doesn't distort your assertion...you say unions are the underlying problem of the auto industry but unions don't make decisions about what cars to build...the underlying problem with the US auto industry is bad management
Instead of refuting my point, you built an weak target to attack. That is a straw man!

No wonder why you tend to ignore the majority of my posts, you are unable to refute them:jointsmile:
GoldenBoy812 Reviewed by GoldenBoy812 on . bailout plan may widen to more industries Wide array of U.S. companies start competing for bailout money Published: Sunday, October 26, 2008 | 2:20 PM ET Canadian Press: Martin Crutsinger, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON - The bailout is now the hottest lobbying game in town. Insurers, automakers and American subsidiaries of foreign banks all want the Treasury Department to cut them a piece of the largest government rescue in U.S. history. The betting is that many with their hands out will be successful, especially with Rating: 5