Your entire debate on Germany is a big straw man (more on that later). I have to believe that you are so wrapped up in building men of straw, you do not even notice what you are doing.

Quote Originally Posted by maladroit
not straw man...german automakers give their employees more vacation than american automakers...that means volkswagon has to hire more people
Your initial statement on vacations is nothing more than a straw man. Labor costs in the US are higher than Germany, one reason is because they do not have to pay health care costs.

that's not a straw man either...it's a fact that german automaker pay more per hour, and germany has stronger unions...according to the IMF, germany's unionized employees have benefits and bonuses too
It is a straw man because you were quick to bring up salary of workers, yet reluctant to address German auto labor costs. Instead, you hide behind a number you were able to manipulate in an attempt to prove your point.

Remember, my original claim was that unions drove up input costs, due to high labor cost. Instead of admitting it, you try to save face.

since then, the united auto workers union inked a deal to significantly reduce labour costs from $78/hour to $26/hour
Hmmmm... Your article does nothing but further support my claims.

Under the contract, GM will institute a lower wage for some noncore, non-assembly employees and will switch all new hires to a defined contribution retirement plan. GM estimated that more than 16,000 of its 74,000 hourly workers would be eligible for the noncore wages, which start at $14 per hour compared to $28 per hour for existing employees.

GM said wages and benefits for its noncore workers would be $25.65 per hour, compared with $78.21 for existing GM assembly workers. Toyota pays U.S. workers an estimated $48 per hour.
Under the above scenario, GM's total assembly labor cost is reduced to $66.85/hr on those 74,000 employees.

Also:
GM said wages and benefits for its noncore workers would be $25.65 per hour, compared with $78.21 for existing GM assembly workers. Toyota pays U.S. workers an estimated $48 per hour.
I do believe this pertains to the original question i asked, but more on that in a bit.


and transfer almost $50 billion in health care benefit liability to the union, but i don't expect BMW and volkswagon to close their expensive unionized factories in germany and import their cars from america:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/GM+says+UAW+contract+to+transfer+$46.7B+in+health+ care+liability+to...-a01610785359
Maybe your just blazed, but lets try this again from the article:
The VEBA will take over $46.7 billion of GM's $64.3 billion in retiree health care obligations, or about 73 percent. GM will be left with $17.6 billion in retiree health-care obligations, including costs for salaried employees and hourly workers who belong to other unions.
Now, how does that prove that GM has drastically reduced labor input costs? What that illustrates is that GM would have not been able to survive another 6 months unless UAW contracts were renegotiated.


yeah, nice chatting with you too! here's a little debating tip for ya: straw man has something to do with distorting your opponent's position, and attributing opinions to him/her/it that they do not hold

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Although it is often difficult to recognize when you build a straw man, you are going to have to pay much more attention.

Remember what we were talking about? Ill refresh your memory. Here is the entire quote of which you only addressed the first sentence.

No it is the Unions. Why does Toyota have no problem placing manufacturing plants throughout the midwest? They are non union, therefore they do not have to deal with the overhead discrepancy. Why else is GM buying out employees?
You went right on to build a straw man by replying:
if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents!

I let it slide, but you magnified it to epic proportions, so now i have to drop the hammer. Our original debate was based on US auto unions harming companies that they are in contract. Because Toyota has many US auto facilities that are non union, the comparison was quite valid. But to drag German into the mix gives an invalid comparison at best, but could show how wrong you really are. Reason be, in what country is the parent company of Chrysler located?
GoldenBoy812 Reviewed by GoldenBoy812 on . bailout plan may widen to more industries Wide array of U.S. companies start competing for bailout money Published: Sunday, October 26, 2008 | 2:20 PM ET Canadian Press: Martin Crutsinger, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON - The bailout is now the hottest lobbying game in town. Insurers, automakers and American subsidiaries of foreign banks all want the Treasury Department to cut them a piece of the largest government rescue in U.S. history. The betting is that many with their hands out will be successful, especially with Rating: 5