bailout plan may widen to more industries

[GoldenBoy812]

oops, my bad:hippy:

[maladroit]

"No it is the Unions."

- if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents!

[GoldenBoy812]

"No it is the Unions."

- if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents!

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

I highly doubt German manufactures face such costs. Not to mention the non existence of large scale American manufacturing on German soil.

You will need to find some stats on German labor costs to make such accusations. Otherwise, i am left to believe you are making low quality and ill informed assumptions...

[maladroit]

goldenboy...welcome back
we missed you


labour standards in germany require employers to provide 30 paid vacation days per year compared to ZERO days in the usa:
CBC News Interactive: Vacation nations



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/bu...gewanted=print
"The average hourly cost of an auto worker in western Germany is the highest in the industry, at $40.80. That compares with $35.40 in Japan, $34.80 in the United States, $27.60 in France and $5.40 in Slovakia, where Volkswagen has an assembly plant."

[GoldenBoy812]

goldenboy...welcome back
we missed you

Thanks, i have been pretty busy:thumbsup:

labour standards in germany require employers to provide 30 paid vacation days per year compared to ZERO days in the usa:
CBC News Interactive: Vacation nations

Straw man! The US does not require any business to provide paid vacations. Instead, the UAW has paid vacations built into the labor contracts themselves.

Try not to skew the facts next time...

Holidays - 2003 UAW GM and Delphi Report

From UAW's own site (GM/Delphi):

A total of 67 paid holidays will be provided to UAW GM and Delphi workers over the four-year term of the proposed agreement. The tentative agreement adds a local Election Day holiday on Nov. 8, 2005, and retains the two national Election Days negotiated in the last agreement.

The holidays will celebrate Veterans Day in each year.

The tentative agreement also maintains the Monday after Easter, the day commemorating the birthday of the late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and the paid Christmas through New Yearâ??s shutdowns.

This of course is only based on holidays. As a rule of thumb for the UAW, they give you also three weeks of paid vacation for under ten year employees. After ten years in the UAW, you will get three weeks plus 1 day per year over ten.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/bu...gewanted=print
"The average hourly cost of an auto worker in western Germany is the highest in the industry, at $40.80. That compares with $35.40 in Japan, $34.80 in the United States, $27.60 in France and $5.40 in Slovakia, where Volkswagen has an assembly plant."

Another straw man! The $34.80/ hr does not include the wonderful benefit package UAW members are also entitled to which is right around $35/ hr. What is Volkswagen's (or any German company for that matter) labor cost per hour?

Of course it is much less than that of the US auto worker, which goes very far in explaining US worker productivity dwarfing that of Germany.

[maladroit]

"Straw man! The US does not require any business to provide paid vacations. Instead, the UAW has paid vacations built into the labor contracts themselves."

- not straw man...german automakers give their employees more vacation than american automakers...that means volkswagon has to hire more people



"Another straw man! The $34.80/ hr does not include the wonderful benefit package UAW members are also entitled to which is right around $35/ hr."

- that's not a straw man either...it's a fact that german automaker pay more per hour, and germany has stronger unions...according to the IMF, germany's unionized employees have benefits and bonuses too



"Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)"

- since then, the united auto workers union inked a deal to significantly reduce labour costs from $78/hour to $26/hour, and transfer almost $50 billion in health care benefit liability to the union, but i don't expect BMW and volkswagon to close their expensive unionized factories in germany and import their cars from america:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/GM+says+UAW+contract+to+transfer+$46.7B+in+health+ care+liability+to...-a01610785359




"Try not to skew the facts next time..."

- yeah, nice chatting with you too! here's a little debating tip for ya: straw man has something to do with distorting your opponent's position, and attributing opinions to him/her/it that they do not hold

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[GoldenBoy812]

Your entire debate on Germany is a big straw man (more on that later). I have to believe that you are so wrapped up in building men of straw, you do not even notice what you are doing.

not straw man...german automakers give their employees more vacation than american automakers...that means volkswagon has to hire more people

Your initial statement on vacations is nothing more than a straw man. Labor costs in the US are higher than Germany, one reason is because they do not have to pay health care costs.

that's not a straw man either...it's a fact that german automaker pay more per hour, and germany has stronger unions...according to the IMF, germany's unionized employees have benefits and bonuses too

It is a straw man because you were quick to bring up salary of workers, yet reluctant to address German auto labor costs. Instead, you hide behind a number you were able to manipulate in an attempt to prove your point.

Remember, my original claim was that unions drove up input costs, due to high labor cost. Instead of admitting it, you try to save face.

since then, the united auto workers union inked a deal to significantly reduce labour costs from $78/hour to $26/hour

Hmmmm... Your article does nothing but further support my claims.

Under the contract, GM will institute a lower wage for some noncore, non-assembly employees and will switch all new hires to a defined contribution retirement plan. GM estimated that more than 16,000 of its 74,000 hourly workers would be eligible for the noncore wages, which start at $14 per hour compared to $28 per hour for existing employees.

GM said wages and benefits for its noncore workers would be $25.65 per hour, compared with $78.21 for existing GM assembly workers. Toyota pays U.S. workers an estimated $48 per hour.

Under the above scenario, GM's total assembly labor cost is reduced to $66.85/hr on those 74,000 employees.

Also:

GM said wages and benefits for its noncore workers would be $25.65 per hour, compared with $78.21 for existing GM assembly workers. Toyota pays U.S. workers an estimated $48 per hour.

I do believe this pertains to the original question i asked, but more on that in a bit.

and transfer almost $50 billion in health care benefit liability to the union, but i don't expect BMW and volkswagon to close their expensive unionized factories in germany and import their cars from america:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/GM+says+UAW+contract+to+transfer+$46.7B+in+health+ care+liability+to...-a01610785359

Maybe your just blazed, but lets try this again from the article:

The VEBA will take over $46.7 billion of GM's $64.3 billion in retiree health care obligations, or about 73 percent. GM will be left with $17.6 billion in retiree health-care obligations, including costs for salaried employees and hourly workers who belong to other unions.

Now, how does that prove that GM has drastically reduced labor input costs? What that illustrates is that GM would have not been able to survive another 6 months unless UAW contracts were renegotiated.

yeah, nice chatting with you too! here's a little debating tip for ya: straw man has something to do with distorting your opponent's position, and attributing opinions to him/her/it that they do not hold

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although it is often difficult to recognize when you build a straw man, you are going to have to pay much more attention.

Remember what we were talking about? Ill refresh your memory. Here is the entire quote of which you only addressed the first sentence.

No it is the Unions. Why does Toyota have no problem placing manufacturing plants throughout the midwest? They are non union, therefore they do not have to deal with the overhead discrepancy. Why else is GM buying out employees?

You went right on to build a straw man by replying:

if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents!

I let it slide, but you magnified it to epic proportions, so now i have to drop the hammer. Our original debate was based on US auto unions harming companies that they are in contract. Because Toyota has many US auto facilities that are non union, the comparison was quite valid. But to drag German into the mix gives an invalid comparison at best, but could show how wrong you really are. Reason be, in what country is the parent company of Chrysler located?

[maladroit]

"Your initial statement on vacations is nothing more than a straw man."

- i'll explain straw man to you again: if i replied to your assertion that american labour costs more by saying that your assertion was based on your hatred of the working middle class american, that would be a distortion of what YOU said...if i say that germans get more vacations and are paid a higher wage, it's not a distortion of anything you said


"Now, how does that prove that GM has drastically reduced labor input costs?"

- the link didn't work so you didn't see the entire article...the 16,000 workers who are on the new low pay are the ones who are currently working at GM and are immediately eligible...65% of unionized employes at GM are eligible for retirement now, and 75% will be eligible by 2011...GM will be handing out incentives to encourage retirement, and significantly reduce it's average labour cost over the next few years:
Financial > 2007 GM ââ?¬â?? UAW Labor Agreement - The Automotive Lyceum





"What that illustrates is that GM would have not been able to survive another 6 months unless UAW contracts were renegotiated."

- the contracts were renegotiated and gm might not survive another six months anyway



"You went right on to build a straw man by replying:
Quote:
if unions are the underlying problem of the US auto industry, then why are germany's automakers so successful? they have stronger unions, higher wages, longer vacations, and funny accents! "

- that's not a straw man at all because it doesn't distort your assertion...you say unions are the underlying problem of the auto industry but unions don't make decisions about what cars to build...the underlying problem with the US auto industry is bad management

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Unions work to help people keep their jobs, and earn fair pay.

if management had it's way, we'd all be slaves, and get payed NOTHING.

That's what a union is, a united group working to benefit each other.

That is what the UNITED states is SUPPOSED to be. but right now, we've let management get ahold of too much power, and we've almost completely destroyed any union we might have ever had in the states.


We wouldnt NEED unions if management RESPECTED it's workers.

Do you know how workers' unions BEGAN in the first place? a little history lesson, which i am not privy to teach since i dont know all the facts, but it is a very telling story between the PEOPLE and the "authority".


Management: i hold my workers to high standards and they had better work hard

Union: we hold our employers to high standards, and they had better treat us fairly.



that's about it, in a nut shell. we'll work as hard as you treat us respectfully.

[GoldenBoy812]

i'll explain straw man to you again: if i replied to your assertion that american labour costs more by saying that your assertion was based on your hatred of the working middle class american, that would be a distortion of what YOU said...if i say that germans get more vacations and are paid a higher wage, it's not a distortion of anything you said

Wikipedia might not be the best place to reference logical fallacies, but lets give it a shot:thumbsup:

Person G: Position X= Unions are ruining the US Auto companies. Premise X= Toyota is non union, but still operates in the US.

Person M: Position Y (distored version of position X)= German auto unions are strong, and so are the companies that they represent. Premise Y= Vacations, etc...

You were unable to refute my claim, so instead of fessing up to it, you compared them to German auto makers and their union because you believed it to be an easy target.

the link didn't work so you didn't see the entire article...the 16,000 workers who are on the new low pay are the ones who are currently working at GM and are immediately eligible...65% of unionized employes at GM are eligible for retirement now, and 75% will be eligible by 2011...GM will be handing out incentives to encourage retirement, and significantly reduce it's average labour cost over the next few years:
Financial > 2007 GM ââ?¬â?? UAW Labor Agreement - The Automotive Lyceum

The reduction of pay to those 16,000 workers amounts to a reduction of 12$/hr on all GM factory employees. This is still noticably more than the $48/hr Toyota pays. Care to respond to this?

Again, your article did nothing but refute your claim. It proves that the UAW has had a strangle hold on GM. Had they done this ten years ago, GM would not be blowing through their cash as they are now.

the contracts were renegotiated and gm might not survive another six months anyway

In what year were they renegotiated? And.... Does Toyota's US facilities have similar overhead?

that's not a straw man at all because it doesn't distort your assertion...you say unions are the underlying problem of the auto industry but unions don't make decisions about what cars to build...the underlying problem with the US auto industry is bad management

Instead of refuting my point, you built an weak target to attack. That is a straw man!

No wonder why you tend to ignore the majority of my posts, you are unable to refute them:jointsmile: