mccain obama debate #3

[dragonrider]

The simple fact is that SOMEBODY is going to have to pay these taxes. We have a $10 trillion debt, and budgets keep growing. At this point, higher taxes is not as great a threat to our well-being as the huge debt. The Repubican ideology has shifted away from the idea of true fiscal responsibility to emphasize only the low taxes side of the equation. If you are going to keep taxes low, you also need to keep spending low, and you also need to have low debt. The governemnt has shown itself incapable of keeping spending low, and the debt is already high, so we will need tax money to pay for those two things.

This is why I actually think that Democrats are really more fiscally conservative than Republicans. The Democrats are honest about the idea that if we really want to have government spend money on the priorities that Democrats represent, then it will require tax money -- Democrats pay for the things they buy. Republicans are not honest about that. Republicans cut taxes while simultaneously increasing spending and just pile on the debt. Now we are getting to the point where that accumulated debt is a real threat to our prosperity --- it is definitiely a far greater threat to our prosperity than raising taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year.

[happiestmferoutthere]

Taxes or no taxes, The guy is a jackass. On Roe vs Wade:
"Health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything."
Any woman should be very afraid of this statement. I suppose he will get to decide what " health of the mother" means?
Hmmmmph!!!!!!

[dragonrider]

It's a deduction; but for instance if you pay someone 35k... that doesn't equate to 35k back into the pocket of the business or even necessarily take 35k off their net income.

Well, of course it doesn't put the $35k back into the pocket of the business owner. That is the cost of doing business, and there is no tax plan that could change that, including zero taxes. And I think if they pay a $35k salary, it DOES take $35k off their net income.

[allrollsin21]

How is that you can make a statement along the lines of, "Yes it does bother me.. that 5% helps to employ the other 95%. End of Story"


thats not the end of story. Restaurants which you reference as going to be one of the harder hit, will do just as well if their patrons have more money to spend. We have watched the trickle down theory FAIL MISERABLY, its time for some TRICKLE UP!

The tone in this thread is almost unbearable. Insinuations being flung about "questionable" replies, and total post counts....

Get a grip. I understand it is going to be a hard and long 18 days...its always difficult waiting for change, when it is not quite ready to happen for another little while.

[dragonrider]

Taxes or no taxes, The guy is a jackass. On Roe vs Wade:
"Health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything."
Any woman should be very afraid of this statement. I suppose he will get to decide what " health of the mother" means?
Hmmmmph!!!!!!

I thought this was one of the things that will hurt McCain the most. The way he said it was horrible. He used his fingers and did "air quotes" around "Health" of the mother, as if it was a joke. The Supreme Court agrees that the health of the mother must be considered in any abortion law, as do most of people who are not on the extreme fringe of the abortion debate. The kind of sneering and sarcastic way McCain referred to women's health was very off-putting.

[daihashi]

How is that you can make a statement along the lines of, "Yes it does bother me.. that 5% helps to employ the other 95%. End of Story"


thats not the end of story. Restaurants which you reference as going to be one of the harder hit, will do just as well if their patrons have more money to spend. We have watched the trickle down theory FAIL MISERABLY, its time for some TRICKLE UP!

The tone in this thread is almost unbearable. Insinuations being flung about "questionable" replies, and total post counts....

Get a grip. I understand it is going to be a hard and long 18 days...its always difficult waiting for change, when it is not quite ready to happen for another little while.

I notice your thread is particularly aimed at me yet I am the only person currently in the dialogue arguing my point.

FYI; under Obama's tax plan people making between 19k and 67k in Obama's tax plan will get about $567 and $1042 respectively.. Divide this by your number of pay periods. Which I get paid weekly so that's 52..

567/52 = $11/week
1042/52 = $20/week.

Which is $40/$80 a month on the low/high end.

Do you honestly think that extra $40/80 is going to help people go to resturants more and leave bigger tips? Probably not; they will go out probably at the same frequency they currently do.. and leave the same amount of money they currently do.

The truth is that cutting taxes for the working class does not reap as great a benefit as cutting taxes for businesses.. who can lower costs of products.. who can choose how to distribute the extra income they get; which may include hiring an extra hand.

On the opposite end of the spectrum it could result in a job being lost. So do you want more money in your pocket or risk the chance of being one of the people who are likely, when taxes are raised on businesses, to lose their job.

shrug.. making 19k/year is better than making 0k a year even if I pay a little more in taxes.

Fact is that both plans offer tax cuts; which are cuts that Bush implemented and regardless of what either candidate says.. are being expanded upon or altered.

It's also interesting to note that McCain, Obama, and Clinton all opposed the Bush tax cuts and now are trying to expand upon them during the election year.

As Candidates Warm to Bush Tax Cuts, Economists Warn of Long-Term Effect - washingtonpost.com

so instead of everyone jumping down my throat why don't we look at this for what it is.. We are paying less taxes, even in the working class, than under Bill Clinton's administration. Why is everyone so up in arms against McCain who would want to further lower the income tax on businesses. We are already paying lower taxes than we did 16 years ago and they will go down even further regardless of which candidate wins the office.


The Tax Foundation - Comparing Income Taxes under Bill Clinton and George Bush

It's not like the working class has been footing a higher bill; it's the contrary, we're paying less than ever.

[daihashi]

The simple fact is that SOMEBODY is going to have to pay these taxes. We have a $10 trillion debt, and budgets keep growing. At this point, higher taxes is not as great a threat to our well-being as the huge debt. The Repubican ideology has shifted away from the idea of true fiscal responsibility to emphasize only the low taxes side of the equation. If you are going to keep taxes low, you also need to keep spending low, and you also need to have low debt. The governemnt has shown itself incapable of keeping spending low, and the debt is already high, so we will need tax money to pay for those two things.

Less taxes = more business = more net income = same or more amount of tax revenue generated for the government without hurting working class or businesses.

And I strongly agree with low spending and this is something that has been irritating me for YEARS!!! Ever since the last year or so of Bush 41's administration up till today. Spending is definitely out of hand.

This is why I actually think that Democrats are really more fiscally conservative than Republicans. The Democrats are honest about the idea that if we really want to have government spend money on the priorities that Democrats represent, then it will require tax money -- Democrats pay for the things they buy. Republicans are not honest about that. Republicans cut taxes while simultaneously increasing spending and just pile on the debt. Now we are getting to the point where that accumulated debt is a real threat to our prosperity --- it is definitiely a far greater threat to our prosperity than raising taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year.

Fiscally conservative would require for them to stop making so many social programs. Not that they aren't needed but honestly they go overboard wit them.

Fact is that both parties increase spending... hell look at Nancy Pelosi adding an extra 150billion to try to do another stimulus package.. WE JUST HAD ONE.. which I also thought was a stupid idea. The first stimulus package made sense because we had a fairly healthy economy that was just on a decline.. now we have an economy that is pretty hurt (not horrible.. but beyond the help that little $300/600 checks can provide). People are not going to spend this money or put it back into the economy. They are going to hold onto it instead preparing for hard times; which isn't a bad thing but the idea here is to try to prevent the economy from GETTING to that point. I'd rather the government do something with the 150 billion that would aid the economy and prevent it from ever reaching "hard times".

Both parties are out of control and it is undeniable. Some things I stand up for in the republican base because I have conservative views.. this doesn't mean I have modern day republican views.. but when they are wrong I do call them out on it as I see fit.

Democrats and Republicans a like are out of control and honestly have us held hostage by this 2 party majority system.

[dragonrider]

FYI; under Obama's tax plan people making between 19k and 67k in Obama's tax plan will get about $567 and $1042 respectively.. Divide this by your number of pay periods. Which I get paid weekly so that's 52..

567/52 = $11/week
1042/52 = $20/week.

Which is $40/$80 a month on the low/high end.

This is why I think the tax arguaments are generally political red herrings. I've been paying taxes for several decades now under many different adminsitrations and congresses and tax codes. Every election there is a huge argument over who is going to raise taxes and who is going to lower taxes as if it is the most important thing in the world. My experience has been it matters very little to me and how I live my life. We've had these hard fought increases and decreases during my working career, and honestly it made so little difference in my paycheck, that I didn't even notice it.

The example above shows how tiny the difference would be under the Obama plan from the current plan. The differrence betwenn Obama's plan and McCain's plan is even smaller. For most people, it won't mean a thing.

[allrollsin21]

what about the people making 68K - 249K. Why only use the low end? That does not seem rationale. Using your numbers...fill in the blanks.

100K a year =

249k a year =



Now as for people spending the money, and going out to eat. I am not talking about the tips. I am talking about the business owner making money. In the restaurant business in particular, peoples perception of the economy has as much to do with actual wealth in deciding whether they go out to eat or not.

"I notice your thread is particularly aimed at me yet I am the only person currently in the dialogue arguing my point."
uh yeah. your the one arguing your point and that is why i am referring to your argument. Whats the problem?

[daihashi]

This is why I think the tax arguaments are generally political red herrings. I've been paying taxes for several decades now under many different adminsitrations and congresses and tax codes. Every election there is a huge argument over who is going to raise taxes and who is going to lower taxes as if it is the most important thing in the world. My experience has been it matters very little to me and how I live my life. We've had these hard fought increases and decreases during my working career, and honestly it made so little difference in my paycheck, that I didn't even notice it.

The example above shows how tiny the difference would be under the Obama plan from the current plan. The differrence betwenn Obama's plan and McCain's plan is even smaller. For most people, it won't mean a thing.

The only thing I care about in regards to taxes is when concerning business. Business is the only place where numbers are typically big enough where a 2-3% tax decrease could be a significant amount that might result in cheaper products, some new jobs or maybe a few extra benefits.

As long as we stay somewhat close to our current tax brackets (for most working class americans) then I don't see a need to lower taxes among the majority of the working class.