mccain obama debate #3

[daihashi]

Good, now we're getting closer - now remember that it is not gross income which is taxed, it is net profit. So does it still really bothers you that 5% of the public who earn more than $250,000 a year might see a small hike in their taxes? And what about the other 95% who have more money to spend at places like that corner store you mentioned? How do you think that effects the bottom line over the course of a year?

Yes it does bother me.. that 5% helps to employ the other 95%.

End of story.

[daihashi]

Well yea... the question has already been found invalid. And you're right, whether Joe claimed $250k or not doesn't make it valid :-)

It's not invalid; and I take it you've never run a business by your previous posts about gross income vs net income.

you are partially right; but it's something you have to experience as a business owner to really understand how that effects you and what the real figures look like.

edit: I should elaborate.. Many small businesses these days are service oriented. In a service oriented business; which many are, where you don't have an inventory.. where you may not have a large office space.. where you might not have the same deductions as say a grocery store or a product based business.... You will take the hardest hit. Because the difference between Gross income vs Net income is not huge..

Even people who are independant contractor based employees and pay their own taxes can attest to this.

[IAmKowalski]

For obvious reasons, I don't plan on discussing my resume on here so I will just advise you to read up Obama's tax plan instead. It's online. Actually, I'm just going to let this thread drop - I spend enough time discussing politics out here in the real world - I come to cannabis.com to discuss... well.... cannabis :-) I just keep getting sucked into these political threads because I have a strong aversion to misinformation, misunderstanding, and manipulative propaganda - that's why I'm an athiest and it's also why I'm a progressive. ;-) Unfortunately, it also makes it difficult for me to just ignore threads like this.

[dragonrider]

I think the point of "Joe the Plumber" in the original Fox News story was that he supposedly pwn3d (I don't realy know what that means) Obama because he claimed he personally represented a person who was going to be hurt by Obama's tax plan. That was his whole value --- he put a face on the issue, just a regular plumber guy who was going to be denied the American Dream. And that is also the reason McCain brought him up at the debate as well --- to personalize the issue.

For McCain, it wasn't about the question Joe asked Obama, it really was about Joe the person as an example.

So when the person Joe the Plumber who is going to be harmed by Obama's tax plan really turns out to the Sam the Unlicensed Plumber who actually benefits from Obama's tax plan, it does sort of invalidate the value he had to McCain.

When you put a real face on the people making more than $250,000 a year or the business owners whose businesses clear a net profit of more than $250,000 a year, it is not ordinary Joes struggling for the American Dream like this guy. Most ordinary Joes struggling for the American Dream like this guy do not clear $250,000 a year and would see a benefit from Obama's tax plan. 95% of American would see a benefit from Obama's tax plan. This guy actually puts a face on the people who would be helped by Obama's plan.

[daihashi]

For obvious reasons, I don't plan on discussing my resume on here so I will just advise you to read up Obama's tax plan instead. It's online. Actually, I'm just going to let this thread drop - I spend enough time discussing politics out here in the real world - I come to cannabis.com to discuss... well.... cannabis :-) I just keep getting sucked into these political threads because I have a strong aversion to misinformation, misunderstanding, and manipulative propaganda - that's why I'm an athiest and it's also why I'm a progressive. ;-) Unfortunately, it also makes it difficult for me to just ignore threads like this.

No one is telling you to leave the thread, and no one asked for your resume. I didn't realize asking if you've ever run a business would give away so much insight that we could track you down. It was a yes or no question; the fact that you elude it is questionable but that is your right and I'll just make no assumptions since no information was given. FYI, I'm agnostic.. I'm logical; however I fail to see the relevance of our beliefs in god or lack there of, but thank you for that tidbit of information I guess.

It would be interesting to see your rebuttal especially factoring in gross income vs net income considering service oriented businesses; which many are these days, and the fact that they indeed do not have as many deductions as you would like to believe. Taxation eats into any type of expansion they may want to give; or perhaps giving their employees a small raise, or maybe they have 4 employees.. make 300k and wanted to give them all a couple of hundred dollars as a bonus, which would be eaten away under Obama's Plan. Furthermore many small business owners pay themselves a salary and put money back into the business as well. Net Income doesn't factor in entire salaries that you pay your employees; another reason why the 3-4% increase over 250k Net Income is so critical.

Fact is that you raise taxes on business.. and business slows down as well as the economy. You put more money into the pockets of business and you give them the ability to expand and grow their business. Which in turn will help generate more income and again will help the government receive the exact same amount of tax money as if it had raised taxes.

And you've only had 17 posts of which 8 are in this thread and about 4 in other threads are cannabis related. Find a balance. I participate in all forums; the politics forum just happens to be the most active. I'm sure you'll find that to be true also.

It's taken a while to find a balance of refraining and jumping in when I feel it's relevant. Something that I still from time to time overstep the line I drew for myself.

This board doesn't have the strongest politics forum; I simply am here to help explain or stop misinformation. I keep my real politics talk onto 2 other forums explicitly for politics; which I can't name or else this post will be deleted.

[daihashi]

So when the person Joe the Plumber who is going to be harmed by Obama's tax plan really turns out to the Sam the Unlicensed Plumber who actually benefits from Obama's tax plan, it does sort of invalidate the value he had to McCain.

When you put a real face on the people making more than $250,000 a year or the business owners whose businesses clear a net profit of more than $250,000 a year, it is not ordinary Joes struggling for the American Dream like this guy. Most ordinary Joes struggling for the American Dream like this guy do not clear $250,000 a year and would see a benefit from Obama's tax plan. 95% of American would see a benefit from Obama's tax plan. This guy actually puts a face on the people who would be helped by Obama's plan.

But for those folks who want to make 250k or more in their business.. they get a slap in the face because they know they'll be punished for doing well. That's a great incentive to want to do better for yourself or your company.

And whether McCain used it as a political tool (which was obvious that he did and you can't really blame him for doing so during an election. This is politics after all) doesn't matter. What matters is what the American people percieve... much as they perceive Bill Ayers as not a big deal because his crime was 30 years ago; but if he were behind bars they would perceive him completely differently.

[maladroit]

"Now in reality; your local corner store probably makes about 250k if it's in a busy area.. and you see this is not a very large business."

- i know you understand this but i want to clarify something:
that $250,000 refers to taxable income, not sales...assuming a 10% net income after inventory, wages to the owners wife and child, rent, supplies, utilities, service contracts, depreciation, etc, that corner store would have to be generating sales of about $2.5 million a year, or about $7000 per day (assuming it's open 360 days a year)

that's pretty good for a corner store...i bet most corner stores don't generate that level of revenue:
BizBuySell - Liquor Stores For Sale

[daihashi]

"Now in reality; your local corner store probably makes about 250k if it's in a busy area.. and you see this is not a very large business."

- i know you understand this but i want to clarify something:
that $250,000 refers to taxable income, not sales...assuming a 10% net income after inventory, wages to the owners wife and child, rent, supplies, utilities, service contracts, depreciation, etc, that corner store would have to be generating sales of about $2.5 million a year, or about $7000 per day (assuming it's open 360 days a year)

that's pretty good for a corner store...i bet most corner stores don't generate that level of revenue:
BizBuySell - Liquor Stores For Sale

It was an example and probably a poor one at that.. which you took out of context to construe for your own means.

GOOD JOB :thumbsup:

[dragonrider]

Taxation eats into any type of expansion they may want to give; or perhaps giving their employees a small raise, or maybe they have 4 employees.. make 300k and wanted to give them all a couple of hundred dollars as a bonus, which would be eaten away under Obama's Plan. Furthermore many small business owners pay themselves a salary and put money back into the business as well. Net Income doesn't factor in entire salaries that you pay your employees; another reason why the 3-4% increase over 250k Net Income is so critical.

I'm not an expert on taxes, and I'm not going to deny that the cost of taxes cuts into the bottom line, which it obviously does. But I'm not sure I believe everytihg you said here is correct. I think things like the salaries, raises and bonuses you mentioned are deducted from the taxable income of the business. And a lot of the cost of expansion that you mentioned can also be deducted and depreciated over time as well.

[daihashi]

I'm not an expert on taxes, and I'm not going to deny that the cost of taxes cuts into the bottom line, which it obviously does. But I'm not sure I believe everytihg you said here is correct. I think things like the salaries, raises and bonuses you mentioned are deducted from the taxable income of the business. And a lot of the cost of expansion that you mentioned can also be deducted and depreciated over time as well.

It's a deduction; but for instance if you pay someone 35k... that doesn't equate to 35k back into the pocket of the business or even necessarily take 35k off their net income.

Also deductions and depreciation don't help businesses to get funds needed initially to expand. Raising their taxes would further make this difficult.