mccain obama debate #3

[IAmKowalski]

Ummm.. that would be a yes. If Joe claims that he will be unable to buy the business because his taxes will go up too much, (which is exactly the claim that first he, and then McCain made) then yes it obviously blows their argument to hell when you find out that the most he will be cost is $900.00 a year.

Combine that with the fact that there is no way that the business actually brings in anywhere near enough to NET $250,000 which means that if anything the business will see LOWER taxes, then yes it very clearly does sink any validity that his question and McCain's argument had.

[daihashi]

Last I checked Obama plans a 3% tax increase over the current tax rate.. 33%.

33% on 250k = 82k in taxes
36% on 250k = 90k in taxes.

That's a pretty decent tax increase.. doesn't look like 900 to me

[daihashi]

Ummm.. that would be a yes. If Joe claims that he will be unable to buy the business because his taxes will go up too much, (which is exactly the claim that first he, and then McCain made) then yes it obviously blows their argument to hell when you find out that the most he will be cost is $900.00 a year.

Combine that with the fact that there is no way that the business actually brings in anywhere near enough to NET $250,000 which means that if anything the business will see LOWER taxes, then yes it very clearly does sink any validity that his question and McCain's argument had.

Again.. you are missing the point of the question posed.. which was the importance of Joe the Plumber. People are singling him out when his question applies to a number of other small business owners.

Look at the question and not Joe. Even if Joe owes 100k in back taxes it does not change the validity of the question asked.. which is what is important in relation to Joe..

Joe himself is just some guy on the street I could care less about, but the question he asked is applicable to many other people who are small business owners.

Again you miss the point and are fixated on a person who's honestly irrelevant in this election; what was relevant was the question he asked Obama.

ps: Joe never said it made 250k.. he said he would like to grow it to 250k or more and wanted to know how that would effect him. To which Obama said he would "spread the wealth".

[IAmKowalski]

You don't understand: It's a higher rate (3% higher) on income above $250,000.00 not a higher rate on every dollar earned by people earning over $250,000.00/year... get it?

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While this income would put Mr. Wurzelbacher above the threshold where he could expect to pay higher taxes under Senator Obama's tax plan, the increase in his tax bill would be relatively modest. Under Senator Obama's plan, the tax on income above $250,000 would increase by 3 percentage points from 33 percent to 36 percent. This means that Mr. Wurzelbacher could expect to see his tax bill rise by between $0-$900, assuming that this plumbing business would be his entire taxable income. If he has additional taxable income, then he would see a larger increase in his taxes.

[IAmKowalski]

Joe did say 250k, actually he said it made as much as $280k. The video is online if you want to check.

[daihashi]

You don't understand: It's a higher rate (3% higher) on income above $250,000.00 not a higher rate on every dollar earned by people earning over $250,000.00/year... get it?

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While this income would put Mr. Wurzelbacher above the threshold where he could expect to pay higher taxes under Senator Obama's tax plan, the increase in his tax bill would be relatively modest. Under Senator Obama's plan, the tax on income above $250,000 would increase by 3 percentage points from 33 percent to 36 percent. This means that Mr. Wurzelbacher could expect to see his tax bill rise by between $0-$900, assuming that this plumbing business would be his entire taxable income. If he has additional taxable income, then he would see a larger increase in his taxes.

Fine.. let's use your equation for someone who makes slightly more than 250k.. we'll use 300k as this is a reasonable number (keep in mind some small businesses make millions and employee a handful of people with high salaries).

so 250k * 33% = 82500
50k * 36% = 18000

for a grand total of 100,500


under current tax rates that's a 1,500 difference.

Now in reality; your local corner store probably makes about 250k if it's in a busy area.. and you see this is not a very large business.

However another example of a small business that actually employs a number of people would be a small construction company.. which may have a revenue of 1 million..

so

250k * 33% = 82,500
750k * 36% = 270,000

Grand total of 352,500

vs

330k under current tax plans.

Keep in mind that it is very expensive to run a business. If you've ever run one then you can attest to how rapidly the costs add up; in addition you need a money buffer in case of emergencies. Enough to be able to last you through at least 1 year of business.

There are certain write offs; but fact is that the amount of tax goes up exponentially. Believe it or not a LARGE portion of small businesses make beyond the 250k mark.

[daihashi]

Joe did say 250k, actually he said it made as much as $280k. The video is online if you want to check.

Touche.. just watched it and you're right.

Still doesn't change the validity of his question.

[IAmKowalski]

Good, now we're getting closer - now remember that it is not gross income which is taxed, it is net profit. So does it still really bothers you that 5% of the public who earn more than $250,000 a year might see a small hike in their taxes? And what about the other 95% who have more money to spend at places like that corner store you mentioned? How do you think that effects the bottom line over the course of a year?

[IAmKowalski]

Touche.. just watched it and you're right.

Still doesn't change the validity of his question.

Well yea... the question has already been found invalid. And you're right, whether Joe claimed $250k or not doesn't make it valid :-)

[daihashi]

Also... examples of small businesses people may not think of when they think of small business

Private Doctor
Independant Lawyer
Dentist
Construction Companies
Apartment Owners
Used Car dealers
Independant Grocery Stores (there are some large ones out there as big as the retail stores).
A/C & Heat repair (big business where I live)
Bars (very big business and the overhead is not as much as you'd like to think)
Resturants
Landscaping services (also a lot of money in this industry)

etc etc

I get the sense when people think of small business they think of the laundry mat; or your local corner store, or dollar store.

Small business generates a LOT of money; and helps employ a great deal of people.