McCain backs ban on affirmative action in Arizona

[Fugitive]

Without affirmative action, there would be no equal opportunity.

Disagree completely, doesn't affirmative action mean favour someone because of their race? If you want your equal utopia it's laws like this that are standing in the way and contradicting your entire philosophy. No one should have anything other looked at than their qualifications.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

If there wasn't demand for government, the government would have never gotten bigger and more powerful. If everyone could manage their own morality, their own behavior in ways which is respectful to all, there would be no purpose for government. People kill, people steal, people are animals. Complex and intelligent but still animals. We fight for territory, we fight for those most similar to us. What makes you think people can handle themselves in an uncontrolled environment?

thcbongman, this isn't really an argument agains what DelusionsofNormality was saying. He said it's the government's place to uphold citizen's rights, not police subjective morality. The duties of government you just described are about upholding rights. Every single basic human right is a factor based in morality, but the "moral policing" going on today isn't a matter of human rights, it's a matter government discrimination against a particular group (in this case, white people). You say "people kill, people steal", and these things are prevented by law because it's a basic human right not to have your property stolen, and a basic right not to have your life taken from you. It is not a basic human right to be discriminated or given an advantage based on your race. Killing, stealing, assault; freedom from these is guaranteed to all people. Affirmative action is guaranteed to select few, which is completely against the spirit of equallity and fairness.

[thcbongman]

Disagree completely, doesn't affirmative action mean favour someone because of their race? If you want your equal utopia it's laws like this that are standing in the way and contradicting your entire philosophy. No one should have anything other looked at than their qualifications.

Affirmative Action isn't about race. It's about gender, veteran and handicap status as well. It isn't about an equal utopia because the world was made to be unfair. To say there is this notion of equality of ridiculous. Some people are born more beautiful, stronger, etc. than the other. It's keeping the level field, ensuring people of all backgrounds competitive fairness. Companies don't only hire based on qualifications only even if there wasn't any affirmative action. It's such a simplistic view of a companies individual needs. Dispel this notion that they hire "the best person out there." That's because the best person is usually expensive. They might need an employee on the cheap. They might need one with a certain personality. Companies can hire who the hell they want.

People are still human still influenced by a culture where less than 40 years ago, it was one of the most racist states in the world. Why do people propose to remove one of the controls, a piece of legislation that did the most to help minorities intergrate into white, American culture? The scope should be narrowed to only making hiring choices based on the scope of the job duties itself which is what Affirmative Action ensures, hiring people within the quota. Sure, once in a while some high-paid white dude gets cut because the company needed to lower cost, but that's more of the fact the guy gets overpaid than the fact he's white. In turn white guy accuses using affirmative action as an excuse he's firing rather than the fact he's expense to the company was a liability. There are some instances where a company had to make a choice based on race regarding employees of the same pay-grade, which results in discrimination. Doing away with the control isn't the solution to it.

Affirmative action isn't perfect, it needs redefinition of quotas to factor it in on a local level. It also does not account for a variety of factors that influence hiring decisions such as cost, company culture and simply an excuse for a human emotional anger at not being hired. However it's shown time and time again that in a completely uncontrolled environment, humans will revert back to the animal-pack mentality.

"thcbongman, this isn't really an argument agains what DelusionsofNormality was saying. He said it's the government's place to uphold citizen's rights, not police subjective morality. The duties of government you just described are about upholding rights. Every single basic human right is a factor based in morality, but the "moral policing" going on today isn't a matter of human rights, it's a matter government discrimination against a particular group (in this case, white people). You say "people kill, people steal", and these things are prevented by law because it's a basic human right not to have your property stolen, and a basic right not to have your life taken from you. It is not a basic human right to be discriminated or given an advantage based on your race. Killing, stealing, assault; freedom from these is guaranteed to all people. Affirmative action is guaranteed to select few, which is completely against the spirit of equallity and fairness.

I don't see what's so subjective about the right not to be discriminated being a human right. History has shown many companies made hiring choices based on race. Look at other countries in the world without affirmative action programs and people are denied opportunity based on discrimination. Rather than doing away with a control, affirmative action, it should be tweaked to fix the favortism, this "guarantee" that sometimes happens. Which is why I think only school and companies that want to participate on affirmative action can do so in exchange for a fair tax break that does not disparge companies/schools into forced compliance. Percentages should not be fixed but variable because of an ever-changing population.. The standards of the school should be accounted in the formula to not accept people sub-standard of their criteria.

Without controls, a group of people may never get hired. The group that affirmative action benefits the most isn't blacks like most people here think. It's the handicap which has a vast disadvantage.

[daihashi]

Affirmative Action isn't about race. It's about gender, veteran and handicap status as well.

Affirmative action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term affirmative action describes policies aimed at a historically socio-politically non-dominant group (typically, minority men or women of all racial groups) intended to promote its access to education or employment. Motivation for affirmative action is a desire to redress effects of actual or perceived, past or current discrimination that is regarded as unfair.[who?] It also serves to encourage public institutions such as universities, hospitals and police forces to be more representative of the population[1].

[thcbongman]

You didn't notice the "as well" part?

[Fugitive]

So white males have an advantage because they are white males? We're all equal but some are more equal? Well I still think it's a ludicrously contradicting policy brought by the minions of political correctness. Any way no need to keep arguing about that since weâ??re not going to agree, my question is what do you suggest once minorityâ??s hit 50%?

CBS News Video - Top Stories and Video News Clips at CBSNews.com

[thcbongman]

Yeah, John Kennedy, that minion of political correctness. I'll accept since the majority of you are white, that getting rid of affirmative action would benefit you all slightly making jobs and slots less competitive, theres no doubt why you are for it. After all if minorities were hired fairly in the first place, there would never been a need for affirmative action.

And the video you have shown should emphasize why affirmative action would still be needed if whites become a minority population. Affirmative action quotas are flexible and reflect on an ever-changing population. There could be a few tweaks to the system to allow more exemptions to exceed quotas like in instance of having a choice to retain a superior candidate to a far inferior one.

All human life isn't equal and it'll never be. No matter how many dream about it. It's regulations such as this that ensures a more equal playing field for all.

[McDanger]

If there wasn't demand for government, the government would have never gotten bigger and more powerful. If everyone could manage their own morality, their own behavior in ways which is respectful to all, there would be no purpose for government. People kill, people steal, people are animals. Complex and intelligent but still animals. We fight for territory, we fight for those most similar to us. What makes you think people can handle themselves in an uncontrolled environment?

I don't see how the results are laughable. The results have been pretty damn good. We don't have a joke of Affirmative Action like various countries in Europe, in which the quotas are fair. We have a large minority population that are more educated and have access to good jobs, which helps lessen the effects of racism. Racism is a natural human behavior which needs to be regulated because has been shown time and time again that most individuals can't govern themselves without affecting the lives of others.

Look at the concept "reverse-racism." Why is it even addressed in such a way? Wouldn't it just be racism? You fire someone because they exceeded a quota based on race? The majority want to be seperated from the struggles of minories. They'll always be racism in one form or another.

Without affirmative action, there would be no equal opportunity.

That is CRAP. Discrimination is illegal based on race, whether there is affirmative action or not. Quotas only give opportunity to the LESS QUALIFIED.

[McDanger]

No disrespect intended, bongman but, you never hired anybody have you????

[thcbongman]

That is CRAP. Discrimination is illegal based on race, whether there is affirmative action or not. Quotas only give opportunity to the LESS QUALIFIED.

You are basically insinuating that minorities are less qualified. Most companies aren't hard pressed to find qualified candidates with the selected quotas. Affirmative Action may have some flaws where exceptions happen pertaining to small businesses but overall it's been great for integrating minorities into US society.

Just having anti-discrimination laws only invokes theory and idealness. It's extremely hard for anyone to prove discrimination. With affirmative action, it turns theory into fact.