Quote Originally Posted by dragonrider
Well, I think the reason you may need to put a disclaimer on your posts is that before you claimed you KNEW how Obama intended to pay for his plan and you were waiting for the rest of us to give you the RIGHT answer. And you claimed in the McCain thread that the speech you had posted had explained HOW McCain intended to accomplish his proposed, as opposed to posts by Obama supporters that you claimed did not explain HOW. But now you say that in both cases you don't actually KNOW either of these things and it is really just how you forsee it happening.
This is what's irritating me. I said exactly where Obama plans to get his money; which no one had said before. So I finally spout it out and you say I don't know how he gets his money. I tell where McCain plans to get his money, but you claim that I don't know.

They both stated how they intend to get their money. It was clearly written and I don't know how you can claim otherwise.

Barack Obama plans to place payroll taxes on Corporations and the Rich.
n regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead.
Guess what. Those are both explanations on where they plan to get their money. Please show me where you offered this up prior to me asking this question repeatedly.

If you are merely going to make predictions for how you forsee these plans being implemented, then I feel my guesses are probably as good as yours. Here is how I FORSEE it happening based on the post by BigWeed and your post in the McCain thread.
You have to try to forsee what is happening. You say this as if you're faulting me. If you don't try to see how each plan will work and the Impact of these plan then you are just making blind choices. Regardless of who's plan you want; I simply want people to think. I've said this several times before. No one has told me what the Impact that Obama's plan will have on the American people and it wasn't until Bigweed's post much later that he mentions the payroll tax on the Rich and corporations.

You are correct. Your opinions and feelings are as good as mine and I've been wanting to hear them. Contrary to what people may think of me all I want is to hear people's Ideas and thoughts on what will happen in regards to these two politicians and if their ideas actually make their way into Law and it's impact on Americans.

BigWeed's post has several points about lowering teh cost of healthcare overall, but only this one bullet point that speaks to where the money for the Government-sponsosred healthcare plan will come from:



So Obama did say HOW he would pay for some of it. Some of the money does come from added payroll taxes to companies who do not already offer plans. That actually seems very reasonable to me. I would imagine there will be additioal costs not covered by this payroll tax, and I do not know where that money will come from. Surely it will be in the form of some other kind of tax, but I do not want to guess what it will be.
I think I acknowledged he had hit the nail on the head here. I never disputed it. Matter of fact I replied on how I thought it would impact the American people, as can be seen below:

Honestly Obama's plan truely does offer more and I don't think I could ever argue against this. What I can argue is the impact this plan will have on the American people.

The super rich make up 0.7 of the population, and I'm going to make up a number here for the rich, a generous number I feel (meaning I'm probably overestimating)... we'll say 10% of the population are the rich. So now we have 10.7% of the population trying to support 89.3% of the rest of the US. Keep in mind that the majority of the members of Congress and most high US officials also fall into this 10.7%. Assuming that Congress for once decided to do what's best for the people and not what's best for themselves. The tax rate on this 10.7% would have to be signifigant in order to aid in support of the remaining 270 million (current population is about 304million, I subtracted 10%), we'll say they're getting 15% tax increase (another estimated number.. not fact). Let's factor in the corporations whom hadn't been previously taxed. They are going to want to protect their profits. Layoffs are the easiest way to reduce cost in order to keep profits up. Through Layoffs the corporations free up the cost it would take to pay that person, in addition they will not be penalized in taxes for that 1 person since they are no longer with the company.

Anyway you slice it or dice it it's a win/win situation for the corporations. Directly leading to an increase in Job unemployment. At this point you're exchanging one problem for another. This also directly effects the economy. If people don't have money to spend then they can't buy goods, which means companies don't make money.. and I think you can see how this cycle would just keep repeating itself in a downward spiral.


I checked through the enitre McCain speech and he did not say HOW he will pay for any of it.
That's really uncanny because I could've thought I said it multiple times. A few of them in direct reply to you. Here are a few:

In regards to McCain. He wanted to shift the Tax breaks that the government previously gave to Employers and give it to the people instead. People will still have the option to get Employer based insurance if it's available or if it's even wanted, but he also wants to offer a second option by redistributing money that would normally be given as tax breaks to Large companies and give them to Americans instead. It's simply a redistribution of money.


And here is another direct quote from the McCain thread in which I asked several people to go and read as it actually had exact data on what McCain proposes:

Under current law, the federal government gives a tax benefit when employers provide health-insurance coverage to American workers and their families. This benefit doesn't cover the total cost of the health plan, and in reality each worker and family absorbs the rest of the cost in lower wages and diminished benefits. But it provides essential support for insurance coverage. Many workers are perfectly content with this arrangement, and under my reform plan they would be able to keep that coverage. Their employer-provided health plans would be largely untouched and unchanged.

But for every American who wanted it, another option would be available: Every year, they would receive a tax credit directly, with the same cash value of the credits for employees in big companies, in a small business, or self-employed. You simply choose the insurance provider that suits you best. By mail or online, you would then inform the government of your selection. And the money to help pay for your health care would be sent straight to that insurance provider. The health plan you chose would be as good as any that an employer could choose for you. It would be yours and your family's health-care plan, and yours to keep.

Tax credit directly instead of the employers getting the Tax Credit.

You said you forsee this:



But I do not read it that way at all. This is what McCain said:



He said every American who wanted it could recieve a credit in the same amount as the credits businesses recieve. He did NOT say that money was being shifted from businesses to employees. What would be the purpose of that? It wouldn't solve anything to give the credit to the employee instead of to the business if the employee already has insurance. The way I read it is if a person does not already have insurance through an employer, or a person is unemployed, the person can get a credit in the same amount as a businees would recieve if a business was providing that person's health care. That's the only way it would make any sense and get any more people insured. So since the person did not previously have insurance, no business was recieving an exisitng credit for that person, and the money can't just be "shifted" to that peerson. That person's credit is a new expense that must be paid for, and McCain does not say where that money will come from. I'm not sure how many americans are unisured, do you? I'm guessing 40 million? If 40 million uninsured people take advantage of a $2500 credit, that's $100 billion a year McCain needs to come up with.
You're right, it is flawed; but considering that naturally some people are going to keep their employer based insurance and some others are not the $100 billion a year figure is skewed. We can't come up with an exact number because we don't know the number of individuals that will enroll.

Perhaps I assumed that it would be a shift in taxes since in the paragraph above it he discusses how currently Employers get a tax break, then in the following paragraph he discusses how the Citizen will get the tax credit directly. I may have interpreted it wrong; although I don't believe so. But for sakes of argument if it makes you happy I'll retract it.

Actually, I do not know which of these plans I would favor, and until we know more details and what they would cost, we won't be able to compare them. I agree that I do not want socialized medicine, but fortunately nothing in either of these plans looks anything like socialized medicine. Not even close. McCain provides a subsidy to anyone who wants to buy their own healthcare inusrance. Obama does the same for those who meet certain income requirements. And Obama creates a national healthcare insurance plan for those who want it, with guaranteed eligibility and portability. Neither one is forcing anyone into a single-payer system or requiring that you buy into a particular plan. So if your main concern is that you don't want to see socailized healthcare, then it looks like you should have no worries.
Honestly I wish both of these guys would stop looking at trying to make new systems and just fix the current one.

If you look at the 20 year stats it's really not THAT bad; it does indicate a problem that probably should've been addressed about 10 years ago though. There's been a 6% rise of Confirmed Americans without insurance.. bringing the total to 20.2% uninsured. There's be a confirmed decline in Americans with Employer based insurance, down 11% from 1987, bringing the total of Americans to 59%.

I think our current system can be fixed. There's just a problem that needs to be addressed. I don't feel there's a need on either party's behalf to rehash/redesign what's already in place.

Again; simply looking at it from a Plan to Plan standpoint.. based on what I forsee happening in both plans. I feel the impact of McCain's plan would be less detrimental than Obama's. I would rather people maintain their jobs, be able to feed their families as opposed to risk becoming unemployed. This is my opinion though and I'm entitled to it. It is neither right or wrong.

All I've wanted is for people to TRUELY discuss the plan and I feel that we are just now REALLY getting into it with the addition of your Post.

BTW; we're in an Obama thread but all you did was discuss McCain. Can we disuss Obama's plan instead? You can address McCain issues in the McCain thread, please. :jointsmile: