Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Why attack something you don't believe in?

And what about people who adopted their religion based on their own volition... perhaps even into their 20s, or later? Those who WEREN'T indoctrinated into it by zealous parents, or active participation in religious institutions? Those people DO exist, you know? So, because they've decided to believe in something greater than themselves, they're worthy of ridicule... spiteful accusations... personal "attacks" on their beliefs? How are they harming any of you by believing in a God, or Gods, or nature, etc.?

I know of very few deists who shun discourse, but I know of many who despise personal attacks made by those citing "logical" assumptions/suppositions that disagree with theological thought. I respect your choice to believe or disbelieve to your heart's content, and I would never attack you because of your beliefs/disbeliefs. All I ask in return is that the same courtesy be extended to me, otherwise we'll have a pissing contest/battle of wits on our hands that will never end.

It all boils down to one word: RESPECT. Either you have it, or you don't. And I've come to find that people from both sides of the isle commonly don't.
I would attack something I don't believe in if I see it hindering mankind. I am never making personal attacks, but if someone claims a belief that (even generally) leads to violence I will voice my mind. It is not hidden knowledge that a huge portion of the conflict in today's world is inter-religious. If the only/main reason for poeple fighting is in the name of a diety, how can any logical person deem that religion a good thing? And don't think I am pointing out the actions of the few and labeling the whole. It takes more than a minority to suppress tibet, or ethnically cleans africa. Somehow america, which is politically driven by judeo-christian thought tries to play cop and leads to more violence.

I am ok with diests, but still if you are happy with everything the way it is why do you need the diety at that point? The thing is, even starting with the best intentions, it is so easy to twist belief into a reason to persecute someone else.

I would argue that those choosing religion later in life are just as much a product of indoctrination as a kid brought up by his parents religiously. There was a quote I read about how Bush Sr made a claim that atheists were not americans b/c "we are a nation under god". To have the most powerful man in the world (at the time) say something like that should bring shivers to anyone not of his religious beliefs.

Next thing you know america will be in iran "preaching democracy" in the name of god. With leaders, media, and ultimately a vast majority of the public behind these kinds of thoughts it isn't far fetched.

I don't see how respect has any place in this debate. I will always respect a person as a person, but why do I have to respect religion more than I have to respect your choice of favorite hockey team?

Quote Originally Posted by Coelho
Well... in this case your reasoning also allows criticise peoples sexual orientation. Everybody is born male or female. Yet, during their lives, they can choose to be anything between this two opposites.

BTW I dont agree with any kind of criticising, whatever it may be. I only know how is to be me, i dont know how is to be anyone else. So i cant make choices for anyone else, and i cant claim that the choices i did myself with regard to my own life are the best ones for anybody else with their own life.
I am 100% ok criticizing those that "choose" (and I hate to use that word here) b/c the fact of the matter is, if everyone decided to be gay, humanity would eventually die out. But when you look at the facts, the human race isn't on a path for extinction for lack of breeding. As long as those that are gay aren't negativly impacting society I have no problem whatsoever with them. On the contrary I have had gay friends all of my life. Now, if the species was dieing out and someone refused to breed, I would haev a problem with them.

Now how can I say you are doing society harm when choosing religion. At the most basic point, time. A gay person doesn't spend thier time any differently than a straight person for all intents and purposes. Religious people and non-religious DO spend their time differently. For ever hour you are praying, or in church, etc is an hour where you could have up and just done something tangible.

Many diests have essentially solved this by just believing enough to say they are religious (far easier a thing to do than debate it) but could be called atheists for all intents and purposes other than the fitting in part in society. If you spend your time doing anything b/c you like it that again I am fine with. But when was the last time a world war broke out over an argument between a group that thought crossword puzzles were the "true game" and all those checkers fans should burn in hell?