My Argument Against God

[hazetwostep]

cool man... yeah not trying to be picky... just clarifying for anyone following the post.

[PureEvil760]

Sup everyone, here's a little argument I made up to try to disprove the existence of god.. feel free to criticize and point out flaws, I wanna make it a very strong argument... Anyway cheers, and enjoy

P1: If god exists, he has existed forever, and nothing has existed before him.
P2: Therefore, god must have existed for an infinite period of time before the present.
P3: There is no reason for a god to exist but not cause any other existence.
P4: Therefore, god must have created the world as soon as he began to exist.
P5: If god created the world as soon as he began to exist, there is a finite time period between
the beginning of the world and the present.
P6: But god has never begun to exist, as he has existed forever.
P7: Therefore there is an infinite time period between the beginning of the world and the
present.
P8: P5 and P7 could not possibly be true at the same time.
C: Therefore, god does not exist.

k ill take a shot at this btw god does exist I dont just believe..its fact. proof is inside yourself but 'god' forbid u take a look.

P1: Yes god has zomg ALWAYS existed, the human percieves time therefore..it seems like a long ass time, but there is no such thing as time. Time is a human created idea which stemed from the earth and sun relationship.

P2: before the present..? yes its always been the same moment there is no before or after.

P3: Not sure what you mean..only earth exists? the universe is infinate as far as we know it is simply not logical to believe humans are the only form of life.

P4: ..scroll up 1 P

P5: Where the hell did u get this idea its so lacking..

P6: Yup.

P7: Again time does'nt exist its a human created illusion.

P8: ok this was repetitive and pointless.

[hazetwostep]

k ill take a shot at this btw god does exist I dont just believe..its fact. proof is inside yourself but 'god' forbid u take a look.

P1: Yes god has zomg ALWAYS existed, the human percieves time therefore..it seems like a long ass time, but there is no such thing as time. Time is a human created idea which stemed from the earth and sun relationship.

P2: before the present..? yes its always been the same moment there is no before or after.

P3: Not sure what you mean..only earth exists? the universe is infinate as far as we know it is simply not logical to believe humans are the only form of life.

P4: ..scroll up 1 P

P5: Where the hell did u get this idea its so lacking..

P6: Yup.

P7: Again time does'nt exist its a human created illusion.

P8: ok this was repetitive and pointless.

a few thoughts back for you...

1. time very much so does exist (at least according to modern science). it is the fourth dimension of our universe (length, height, depth, time). now this is not synonymous with time as in 60 seconds, 24 hours, 365 days... you are correct that those are periods of perceived time decided upon by humans.

time is an actual dimension along with length, height, and depth that together make up the very "fabric" of our universe. time therefore is subject to the Theory of General Relativity (one of those things Einstein thought up, crazy guy! and is relative to one's perception. meaning that time can stretch or shrink just like a rubber band. i mentioned this in my first post so i won't overdue the point, but time very much so does exist.

2. your p2 thought is very interesting. i hold similar spiritual beliefs to the principle that as a "spiritual being" (for lack of a better word) there is not past or future, but only present. there is no tomorrow for when tomorrow comes you will find that it is actually the present. it is a very empowering and proactive outlook on life that has changed my life for the positive in many ways. i believe that our "spirits" are home to an existence that is timeless hence why we experience the phenomena of there only being "the present" though we indwell a place that is subject to time. it is kind of a messy tangle to comprehend really. the reality of this existence we know as our universe has time.

3. your p3 point is at odds with modern science again. the universe is finite. it has a total mass and shape. it is expanding and something infinite cannot expand because it is all by definition.

4. i don't think anything Reg said was pointless... something someone is working out is not pointless just because it is not refined or complete yet. my view of things is not complete or perfect either.

[Revanche21]

You will be respected here.You have some good point of views,but explain this too me......can you explain a 120% in increased storms,the Tsuamni,plague slowly coming into the world?

The Prohecy's are coming correct,God made it clear the time they would come true,when man douted his existance.I can understand why some of you may be turned off,but soon I believe your mind will be changed.

science can explain phenomena in the world

to call unexplainable phenomena god has always been premature

[Coelho]

1. time very much so does exist (at least according to modern science). it is the fourth dimension of our universe (length, height, depth, time). now this is not synonymous with time as in 60 seconds, 24 hours, 365 days... you are correct that those are periods of perceived time decided upon by humans.

time is an actual dimension along with length, height, and depth that together make up the very "fabric" of our universe. time therefore is subject to the Theory of General Relativity (one of those things Einstein thought up, crazy guy! and is relative to one's perception. meaning that time can stretch or shrink just like a rubber band. i mentioned this in my first post so i won't overdue the point, but time very much so does exist.

I wouldnt be so sure about the objective existence of time... we know that it exists inside our minds... in fact, it is a human concept. So how can we be sure that this human concept holds outside the human mind?

Space is another human concept. It comes from the fact that we humans are primarily visual beings, what means that we create a notion of world based mainly in what we see. We deal with concepts like close and far, large and small, which are greatly visual, and then resume all this concepts in a notion of space. But its notion is only a product of the abstraction of the human mind.

For example, take some animals who are more olfative and less visual than men. They make their notion of world based on smells more than images. Smells travel and behave differently of the light (which always go in straight lines and at the same speed). Its hard to have a notion of close and far only by the smell, and harder still to have the notion of large and small... so much probably this animals have other concepts, different of ours, and for they our concept of space wouldnt make any sense, as well as their concepts based on the smells perception wouldnt make much (if any) sense to us.

And the concept of time comes from our memory. As we remember configurations of perception (all things that we were seeing, hearing, thinking, etc), and notice that they are different of our current configuration of perception (what we are seeing now, hearing now, etc), we say that there was a lapse of time between this two different configurations of perception. But the only "real" thing is that there were different configurations of perception.

Its like if our memory were a collection of pictures. Some almost equal others, some very different. And we were trying to put some order in it.
So we would put the alike ones near, and the different ones far. As more alike two pictures were, as near they would be in the order.
Then we could create a concept relating the difference between two pictures and the distance of them in the stack of pictures, and this concept would be much alike our concept of time.

BTW the relativity of Einstein was the first theory to show that the concepts of space and time were human constructs, and not something "transcendental"... in relativity, space is simply the thing that is measured with a ruler, and time is simply the thing that is measured by a clock. Space and time lost their transcendental existence, and were turned in very human things. Cause rulers, clocks and measurements are things created by humans mind, and so all concepts derived from this.
Without rulers and clocks, the space and time may exist (or not), but they lose their meaning.

2. your p2 thought is very interesting. i hold similar spiritual beliefs to the principle that as a "spiritual being" (for lack of a better word) there is not past or future, but only present. there is no tomorrow for when tomorrow comes you will find that it is actually the present. it is a very empowering and proactive outlook on life that has changed my life for the positive in many ways. i believe that our "spirits" are home to an existence that is timeless hence why we experience the phenomena of there only being "the present" though we indwell a place that is subject to time. it is kind of a messy tangle to comprehend really. the reality of this existence we know as our universe has time.

Well... if this "spiritual beings" share some perceptual similarity with us (if they percieve the world in ways alike ours, like seeing,hearing, etc), its possible that they have similar concepts of time and space.
But even so, its possible that they have not the concept of time... in the example of the stack of pictures, what if this "spiritual being" were able too see all the pictures at the same time? It wouldnt need to put them in order to look at them. And for us, it would seem like this being were able to live past, present and future at the same time.

Maybe this division of the time is only a human limitation... the space-time has 4 dimensions... and so all the configurations of matter in all the instants of time (past and future also) are already there in the space-time. But our mind only can process 3 dimensions at once. Which is the same to say that we only can see one picture each time. The ones that we already did see we call past, and the ones that we still didnt we call future, but they already are there, just waiting to be seen.

So, in the space-time there is no concept of time as we humans think. Past, present and future are already there. They exist there "at the same time". The space-time has no need of the concept of time like we think it is, a thing that flows, that passes... at the space-time, time is only more a "distance" between things.

3. your p3 point is at odds with modern science again. the universe is finite. it has a total mass and shape. it is expanding and something infinite cannot expand because it is all by definition.

I would say that the physical observable universe is finite and its expanding. But nothing (nor even the physics) warrants that all the universe is actually obsevable. And, if we are talking about "supernatural" things, we also cant warrant that the universe in only the physical universe that we currently observe.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

My only argument against god is christianity... mostly catholicism.