Bush pushes for NATO expansion

[yokinazu]

uhm yeah

stalin was moving his factorys and forces into siberia. trying to do the same thing to the germans that they did to napoleon. trap him in the russian winter. but western rusia was on the verge of collapsing under the nazi forces, hitler did lose a massive amount of troops fighting in russia but lets not forget that by this time hitler was fightin on 2 fronts. he made his mistake ofcomiting troops to russia prematuraly. france and spain had already fallen and england was on there knees getting ready to surrender when low and behold the japanese jumped the gun and bombed pearl harbour. this brung america into the war. hitler DID NOT want america in it so soon. by americans arriving in europe it strenghtened the forces of england and the french underground to the point that hitler had to start falling back. and he had to go on the defense. thereby reducing the number of troops he could comit to the russian campaign. when he retreated from russia it was not because it was un winnable but because he was facing defeat on the western front. so he had to enforce his front. oh and one other thing during WW II the german tiger tank was th most advanced and sophisticated main battle tank in the world. the russia t-34 and the american sherman tanks COULD NOT penatrate the armour. the russian have always been known for producing mass amounts of junk equipment. when the sherman was outfitted in late 43 with an 80 mm (i beleive it was 80) to replace the 72 mm main gun that was when they became a threat to german armour. the only 2 peices of equipment the russians evermade worth a crap was the mig fighter and the ak-47.

for a truly unbiased perspective of nazi germany and hitler read the book "the rise and fall of the 3rd reich"

one other tidbit when hitler took czechlosovakia he did so with out firing a shot just the threat of attack was enough. when his own generals inspect the czech fortifications they all agreed that hed they held out the nazis would have been defeated right there.

[fishman3811]

Since when did this become a ww2 forum well anyway ill have to really disagree with you on the fact that the T-34s were junk.Yes they were hurriedly built and poorly finished by western standards but the T-34/76 was nevertheless a superb fighting machine.In 1943 the existing panzers couldnt adequately oppose against the T-34/76,the germans were forced to develop a new tank the panther.Also the T-34 was regarded as the worlds best tank at the time so it wasnt "junk".As far as Germany beig on the defensive in Russia due to the buildup of the American army in England is false.Hitler was on the defensive because Russia was kicking his ass most troops that were defending the western front were militia and hitler youth.The famed 12th SS panzer division that defended the western front was a Hitler youth division.The Sherman tank had a 75mm gun btw.In fact to destroy a german tiger tank the shermans had to hit it from the side or behind and yes the Tiger was the best tank of its day but soo few were actually produced.Any way it was the Allies that defeated Germany not one country alone defeated GermANY.Unless of course you grew up in America were you were taught otherwise

[yokinazu]

first off there was no t-34/76. i was in the military on a tank and i had to know the history of armour of every country. the t-34 was refitted and called a t-34-85 in 1944 after abandoning plans for the t-44.. in 1955 the russian built the t-54 and t-55 tank, wivh was replaced in 1962 by the t-62 and this was replaced by the t-64 and evntually the t-72. wich was then replaced by the t-80, built in 1976 and is the only one not to follow the dating pattern

the tiger 1 deisigned after the t-34, was built to stand up to and defeat the t-34. was in use from 1942 to 1945. many german tank division exceeded a 10:1 kill ratio some even as high as a 17:1 kill ratio. the germans in WW II are still regarded as the absulte best the world ahs ever seen when it comes to tank warfare. rommels stratagies are still used to this day by almost every country in the world.

many people beleive that the m-1 abrams is the best in world today but the israeli merkava way outclasses it.

also my apologies i see t-34/76 was refering to its gun size. but it was called just t-34 they did not redesignate till the main gun was refitted

also hitler did lose th russian front because of the americans once his troops were tied up on the western front he could not snd the needed reinforcments to russia. and no it was not 1 country that defeated hitler but the supply of troops that america sent gave a huge boost to the european forces and turned the tied.

[boaz]

^ y'all seem to have forgot one fact. this is not 1942.

those old conflicts were wars between Democracy and dictatorship. we won.

thanks for posting this ModFather, i hadn't even thought about Georgia and Ukraine helping us in Afganistan and Pakistan, or Bin Ladastan . . . :stoned:

[apocolips31]

President for life Putin has reason to be upset and so he should be.As far as a war with Russia whether it be in the distant future i hope would be improbable.But my money would be on Russia ( sorry Americans im not trying to be little you guys)but look at what they did against the Nazi war machine a far superior fighting force and the Russians kicked ass the Russians had the Nazis defeated long before America entered the war.By august 1944 Russia was attacking warsaw.The end was in sight for germany.

The only reason the Russians were able to turn back the Germans was their winter. If Russia didn't have such a harsh winter the Germans would of steam rolled over them like they did the months before Winter. We (Americans) sent massive amounts of supplies to Russia to help them continue their offensive. Without it they probably still would of been able to stop the Germans (with the help of their winter of course) but, not continue to advance to Germany it self and ultimately Berlin. On the other hand without the Russians to tie up millions of troops on the eastern front Hitler would have been able to fortify the French coast into a impregnable fortress even more so then it already was. So it was a mix of all allies that helped to put an end to the Nazi regime.

Also Fishman we are not taught in America that we won the war alone. To say so would be ignorant. But, you can't deny the great contributions that we made in terms of supplies before we even officially entered the war. It is the same thing as with the Brits. It's not that they didn't have the skill or courage to fight the Nazi's , because they had plenty of that. But, without fuel and food Britain would of eventually been either starved to death or been invaded because they didn't have the fuel necessary to stop the Nazi war machine. But, without them fighting and holding off the Germans their never would of been a D-day at least not the same one we know today. So who knows what would of happened if we didn't all do our part to stop such a evil regime.

[fishman3811]

Apocolips yes you are right about America supplying the other allies with weapons,oil,food without such help we might be speaking German right now.Also my mistake about saying that you were taught that America won the war it was an assumption i shouldnt of made. The T34/76 the 76 is the gun size and your right about the skill of the German tank commanders they were the best of that time but couldnt overcome the superior numbers of tanks that the allies had -American and Russian.Yokinazu does the American Abrams have A/C in them just curious?

[yokinazu]

A/C lol. not no but hell no. they do however have a recirculating system for NBC attacks that blows air thru it. kinda fan but the air is the same temp as outside air. it does help tho when you stick the end of the hose into you shirt or pants and turn it on. the hose conects to the canister on the protective mask to help cool you down. but as far as bein refrigirated no. the heaters are also junk.

[fishman3811]

well they should have a/c in them.i always thought that the abrams were the best tank of today.but i dont know much about the merkava tank.

[samostalan]

NATO = fail.