"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all."

and

"The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I think it's not beautiful. And very shortly you discover that there is no reason."

Both from John Cage

When you listen to rap and hip-hop with an untrained, unappreciating ear, your judgments are already blinded by prejudice. I'd like to see some of you put complex thoughts into mere lines of poetry with the wit and clarity they do. Listen to the background track; pick out the different intricate parts that might linger in the background. Good hip hop tells a story, one that, if you didn't already listen to hip hop, you probably couldn't relate to necessarily, but you can dig what the artist is conveying.

Also, check out the Roots' album Things Fall Apart. That album was the first serious hip hop I had ever listened to, and I was hooked. And yes, they play their own instruments. And yes, the turntable effects are all vocalized. Now tell me that doesn't take any talent.

Now, I'd love to tackle Breukelen advocaat's notions of art, but I'm slightly foggy at this moment as I've hit a bud dry spell. IF you check this thread again, bro, ponder this: John Cage said, "When we separate music from life we get art." I on the other hand, can't see the two separated, as they are intertwined. Music is a means of communication of ideas, always has been. How do we take life out of music when it's been inseparable since music's creation? Just something to consider.