Quote Originally Posted by Coelho

So, instead of percieving the things as they are, we percieve them like a list of characteristics, or labels. Everything we percieve is only a list of labels. And now we arrive at the problem of the nature of the reality.
Ok I agree with that......

Quote Originally Posted by Coelho
I dont doubt there is an objective reality independent of we humans, or of our minds. But this objective reality is not the "real world", "out there", just because what we call the "real, physical world" is only a list of labels into our brains.

The "real" nature of the things, or rather, the most basic level of "reality" humans can perceive things is as energy. Everything is energy. Matter is energy (as proved by E=mc2). And energy is energy (obviously). So, energy is the basic level of the objective world, is of what the things are actually made. But we dont perceive the world as made of energy, because between it and us there is our brain, classifying the different manifestations of the energy, so instead we perceive it directly, we perceive just a list of labels.
I agree with you except where you claim there is an independent reality. You seem to understand that all matter is energy, so what is so hard to swallow the idea that existence is all a construct of the mind? Your mind arranges this energy to make sense of it, to give an identity or label to everything. Without the mind all we are left with is an endless abyss of energy, and energy itself has no mass, depth, color, or any other physical properties.

So independent of the mind, existence is nothing but energy. We ourselves are energy, our mind makes us consciousness of the energy around us and we assign identities to energy we sense so we are able to identify ourselves as a distinct and seperate identity from the rest of the energy floating around.

It is pretty generally accepted that we are able to become self aware because we are able to use symbols and abstract thought to interact. It is through this interaction that we come to view ourselves as unique individuals, as an "I". Humans are one of the few animals that are able to do this, and the only ones who can construct a complex self concept. If you put a dog in front of a mirror, it will not be able to recognize itself because it has no sense of I. It will either be indifferent or respond to its reflection as a separate entity.


Quote Originally Posted by Coelho
This process of "labelization" of percieved energy is a learned skill we learn during our earliest childhood. So, a child learns to percieve the world as the other humans do. But this process is reversible. Through practice of meditation, mystical experiences, or use of some psychedelics, we can stop this process of labelization and percieve the world as it is, and its called "illumination", "enlightenment", "stopping the world", etc, which is described in several spiritual teachings.
Enlightenment, at least according to Buddhist and Hindu texts, deals mainly with understanding the emptiness of everything in existence and being able to be in control of your emotions instead of your emotions controlling you. The Bhagavad-Gita says "Nothing of nonbeing comes to be, nor does being cease to exist; the boundry between these two is seen by men who see reality". I believe that being means consciousness. Nonbeing is everything that is not conscious, or the external world. This only exists as far as some being is able to perceive it. Now I can't say I know a lot about enlightenment, but it seems to me that to be enlightened is to truly understand that what is perceived as a reality independent of the mind is an illusion.



Quote Originally Posted by Coelho
BTW, i personally think our brains are not the source of our consciousness, but an intermediary between the physical world and our (non-physical) consciousness, much like our eyes are intermediary between the outside world and our brains. Our brains cant percieve light directly, so it need the eyes to convert light to electric impulses which it percieves.
And i would say our non-physical consciousness cant percieve the physical world directly, and thats why it needs our brain to do it.
Your right, our brain isn't the source of our consciousness, it is our mind. The brain is just a machine, it is physical, and physical things only exist if there is a consciousness to perceive them. Independent of the mind, what you consider the physical world is not physical at all, but a large mass of nothing but energy.