Obama's church

[dragonrider]

Personally, if "I" were so sincere about this issue and apparently more with the church....I'd find a different one out of respect for myself and people that look to me for some sort of guidance.

It's like saying that he stops into the Bunny Ranch once a week but doesn't believe in prostitution.

Have a good one!:s4:

It's not right to expect a person to give up his church over something like this. It's possible to disagree with the leadership of an organization and still find value in the organization, and I'm sure this church is invloved in many valuable activities.

I don't attend church now, but when I was a kid my family attended a church. My parents found a lot of value in it. There was a great sense of community. The church was involved in a lot of beneficial charitable activities. I found out years later that apparently the Dutch Reform Church is also the church of South Africa and was somehow involved in apartheid at the time --- I'm not exactly sure how they are connected, but according to my mother, they are. Anyway, I never saw anything overtly racist in the church, and I know for a fact that my parents were not racist in any way. I can't imagine them feeling they had to leave that church that they loved because of the apparent racist beliefs of some of the higher members of the international organization.

Another example from my own life is the Boy Scouts. I was a scout and I loved it. There was great value in that organization and the experiences I had there. At some point the Boy Scout leadership decided that they would ban gay members and leaders. I never remember any kind of homophobia in my troop, and I am not homophobic. I can't imagine being expected to give up that organization because of some dumbass policy at the highest level.

No church is going to completely escape taint. If Obama was Catholic, you wouldn't assume he was a pedophile if he refused to convert just becasue some priest was caught with his pants down. You wouldn't assume he was a Nazi just because the pope was affiliated with the Nazi youth when he was younger. You don't assume Romney is a polygamaist, do you? If a person disavows something they do not believe in, you should give them the benefit of the doubt unless you catch them in a lie.

Just as no good orgaization can fully escape taint, not all orgaizations that you might disagree with are 100% bad either. I think the Nation of Islam is too militant and separatist for my tastes, and I do not agree with leadership figures like Farrakhan. But the NoI has done some good things as well. They successfully rehabilitate criminals, they value education, they shun dangerous drugs and alcohol, they teach people self respect and pride. I do not agree with many things they do, but if we're being honest, we should give them their due as well.

[Rusty Trichome]

The thing is, I think the article you quoted is doing exactly what you describe as an inferior method of debate. It never makes a strong connection between Obama and all the negative points it makes about Louis Farakhan. All it says is Obama respects Wright, Wright respects Farakhan, Farakhan did bad things, therefore Obama is in favor of the bad things Farakhan did. It's pathetically weak. I think it's doing exactly what you were describing --- it throws a bunch of neagative crap on the wall about Lious Farakhan and Kwanzaa and hopes some of it will spatter onto Obama.

Yup. Isn't it frustrating...? I've spent the last two days waiting for someone to read the article and comment on the damn thing, and it's source. No one mentioned anything to do about the article, and yet continue to rant. Yes the intent of the article was clearly to be a hatchet-job. Same as the liberal anti-america bullshit y'all spout daily without checking into the facts.

In adopting the "question authority" mindset, I just have to ask...
Those that teach you we need to question authority, who is it among you that are questioning their authority? Like intellectual sheep to a slaughter, you never seem to question the source or the information as long as it fits neatly in your "I Hate Bush" philosophy.
Guess as long as there is no responsibility twords honesty, it's easy to justify.

Obama's association with and being a major contributor to, TUCoC for 20 years qualifies him to be judged by the doctrine from that church. This type of doctrine hasn't just happened overnight, but has been there since the day he stepped foot inside that church.
Am I afraid of that doctrine? No, but am somewhat disgusted by it.

[dragonrider]

Yup. Isn't it frustrating...? I've spent the last two days waiting for someone to read the article and comment on the damn thing, and it's source. No one mentioned anything to do about the article, and yet continue to rant. Yes the intent of the article was clearly to be a hatchet-job. Same as the liberal anti-america bullshit y'all spout daily without checking into the facts.

In adopting the "question authority" mindset, I just have to ask...
Those that teach you we need to question authority, who is it among you that are questioning their authority? Like intellectual sheep to a slaughter, you never seem to question the source or the information as long as it fits neatly in your "I Hate Bush" philosophy.
Guess as long as there is no responsibility twords honesty, it's easy to justify.

When you say "you" you're not talking about ME are you? Becasue I don't think I do what you are talking about at all.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Am I the only person that finds the image of a potential leader on his knees begging forgiveness from a male phallic god disturbing? I don't really give two cents which church he belongs to - it's his actions that count.

I'm suspicious about what exactly he's done in his life that requires such piety, and then his constant pointing out about how virtuous he is. I guess some voters find all of this appealing. I find it disgusting.

[dragonrider]

Obama's association with and being a major contributor to, TUCoC for 20 years qualifies him to be judged by the doctrine from that church. This type of doctrine hasn't just happened overnight, but has been there since the day he stepped foot inside that church.
Am I afraid of that doctrine? No, but am somewhat disgusted by it.

I've been all over the Trinity United Church of Chirst website you provided a link to, and I don't see anything that bothers me about this church at all.

[Rusty Trichome]

When you say "you" you're not talking about ME are you? Becasue I don't think I do what you are talking about at all.

Wasn't directed to you in particular, as there are many reading this this article I believe fit the statement.

Was in the middle of looking up back issues of the TrumpetMag, and site went down. Will check back later.

Look...you may like Obama, and appear to have valid reasons to do so. This is obviously your right. It is also within my rights to point out discrepencies in his story. As long as you are comfortable that you personally have checked for the validity of both sides of any argument, and it is represented in a manner showing you care enough to study the issue, my argument fades into ticky-tack nit-picking, as does yours.
In debate class we were often given a set of facts regarding an issue. The assignment was to take one side of the debate, and by only utilizing the facts given, to intelligently spar with a classmate on the other side of the argument who was also given the same facts. Then you switch, taking on the opposite side of the issue.

On these boards, the common information gathering practice is to play the chinese whispers game. (googlable)

Not sure if it's just being lazy, or peer pressure.

But I do know that there is quite a responsibility to questioning authority. Otherwise one sounds like a puppet, with Hollywood pulling the liberal strings.

[Rusty Trichome]

I found out years later that apparently the Dutch Reform Church is also the church of South Africa and was somehow involved in apartheid at the time --- I'm not exactly sure how they are connected, but according to my mother, they are. Anyway, I never saw anything overtly racist in the church, and I know for a fact that my parents were not racist in any way.

Good example, however if your parents were unaware this was going on, (the church wasn't preaching on the matter) and the church doctrine didn't mentioned the associations...then yes. I'd say that is a different story altogether. Would sound to me like a leader had his own agenda. Not all churches are on the up-n-up, but this does not mean they are all secretive and malicious.
I believe strongly the UTCoC is troubling at best.

Another example from my own life is the Boy Scouts.

Only comment to that is that there were no gay leaders when I was a scout.

If Obama was Catholic, you wouldn't assume he was a pedophile if he refused to convert just becasue some priest was caught with his pants down.

No, but pedophilia is not a part of catholic church doctrine.

You wouldn't assume he was a Nazi just because the pope was affiliated with the Nazi youth when he was younger.

Nope, just like Obama, can't control the childhood past. Had he remained or joined later in life, then yes, I'd assume him to be a nazi.

You don't assume Romney is a polygamaist, do you?

It's not part of the church doctrine, so no.

If a person disavows something they do not believe in, you should give them the benefit of the doubt unless you catch them in a lie.

How can Obama disavow a church he has devoted twenty years of his life to? Were my pastor to come out and tell us Osama Bin Laden was coming on Sunday to offer advise on empowerment, his (our pastors') would be the next funeral. (in a matter of speaking, of course)
I'll bet there are at least a couple of christians that could have given the interview, without having a black militant reverend with a pention for hating whites, jews and America, speaking to my congregation. Wouldn't take me long to change my affiliation, and I'm not even running for office.

They successfully rehabilitate criminals,

making them part of the posse (security) doesn't count, lol. Sorry, couldn't help it.

[dragonrider]

How can Obama disavow a church he has devoted twenty years of his life to?

I was not saying he should disavow his church. I was saying he has stated he rejects racism and anti-Semitism and condemns those kinds of statements by Farrakhan. He disagrees with Trumpet Magazine's decision to honor Farrakhan. He should be taken at his word unless it is proven otherwise.

And my examples of organizations with questionable decisions made by leaders were not meant to suggest that those organizations included those hateful practices as a part of their doctrine. That's why I think they are good examples. I don't think that anti-Semitism and racism are part of the doctrine of Obama's church, at least I didn't see anything that made me think they were racist on the website you provided a link to. The leader of the church has made the questionable decision of honoring Farrakhan who has made racist and anti-Semitic remarks, but that does not mean racism and anti-Semitism is a part of TUCoC's doctrine. If it is, then I think Obama should reject the church, but I don't think it is part of their doctrine.

That is probably the only point where we really disagree, and I guess we'll probably have to leave it at that. Certainly if I thought his church really was racist, then I agree --- I would not be happy to see him as a member of it, and it would probably be to late for him to do anything about it. But I assume if you believed his church was NOT racist, then you wouldn't have a problem with him bieng a member? Our disagreement comes down to whether TUCoC is really racist or not.

[Rusty Trichome]

I'm sure it's no more so than the NAACP.:jointsmile:

[8182KSKUSH]

Here's the deal,
The argument that anyone that is president has to be agnostic and can't believe in a higher power is not really relevant. Anyone can believe anything they want. One of the first posts said something about how Bush was wrong to believe in his faith and rely on it for guidance. Since when?
From what I understand THE GOVERNMENT AS A WHOLE CAN'T FORCE A RELIGION DOWN YOUR THROAT. People that serve in the goverment can believe what ever they want.

As for Obama, I have mixed feelings about the church issue. No fan of the NOI, however, I can't hold Obama accountable for what his church does and if someone in that church has piss poor judgement, that's not his fault. That seems silly, that's like holding you accountable for your wierd ass uncle in Thailand. I don't think the issue is really relevant with any canidate or Bush for that matter. No doubt it will be an issue for some. Ok, that's there perogative.
As far as not insulting islam? Whatever.:S4:

So let me see if I have this str8.
Hate America ok
Bash America ok
Hate Christians ok
Bash Christians ok
Make a funny cartoon about Islam and people threaten jihad?
Sweet Feathery Jesus, I am an equal oppurtunity offender, and yes there is plenty to make fun of islam about. It seems islamists and their sympathizers have alot in common with the liberal left, like 0 tolerance for anyone that disagrees with them.:thumbsup: I say antagonize the hell out of them, if they can't take it then too fucking bad, they can do something about it. Worked out real good for them the last time they tried something, look at them now. :S4::apachecopter::s4::Tomcat::chainsaw: