The switch to organic

[organic_sourdiesel]

I switched from General to Advanced, and back to GH and now I've made the jump to Botanicare's pureblend pro line. I am using the following:

pureblend pro grow
pureblend pro bloom soil
karma
sweet
grotek's calmax
and I bought Hydroguard, but it has floaty flakes in it, so I am going to bring it back to the shop and possibly exchange it... (not using it yet)

There is a lot to figure out, and through this thread, I hope to fine tune the feeding schedule. The chart from Botanicare does not seem to be right for cannabis... I am going to add my other posts to this grow log to have a chronology of how things have been growing...

organic_sourdiesel Reviewed by organic_sourdiesel on 12-05-2007. The switch to organic I switched from General to Advanced, and back to GH and now I've made the jump to Botanicare's pureblend pro line. I am using the following: pureblend pro grow pureblend pro bloom soil karma sweet grotek's calmax and I bought Hydroguard, but it has floaty flakes in it, so I am going to bring it back to the shop and possibly exchange it... (not using it yet) There is a lot to figure out, and through this thread, I hope to fine tune the feeding schedule. The chart from Botanicare does Rating: 5

[organic_sourdiesel]

switch to botanicare from GH/Adv. advice please
Hey everyone... Stinkyattic, I've noticed a lot of mention of Botanicare, so maybe you're the one to help me out...

I grow in promix HP, under 1000 watt HPS. I use drain tables and do short sea of green in 1 gal pots... Many many little girls... My water is good, and has only about 40ppm out of the tap, with a ph of around 6.8-7. I always let my water sit overnight before using it to let the chlorine evaporate out, with bubblers going...

I've just had the worst 3 harvests ever, and had put the most work into them ever. Irony. Over the years, I've used GH, Advanced, then back to GH. The last 3 crops showed signs of fert lock out/salt build up, with a very low ph reading in my runoff. When I leached to correct it, and started feeding again, the plants bolted and finished early with a severely diminished yield, although with killer quality. This has happened 3 times in a row! crazy. I used to grow in buckets so lazily and that was more successful.

I've wanted to do this for some time now, and have just started a new crop of organic sourdiesel (Sativa predom), again in 1 gal pots. I've purchased the botanicare line. I have the following:

pureblend pro (grow)
pureblend pro soil (flower)
liquid karma
sweet
hydroguard

I planted in wet HP with only water @ 6.3. I've just given my 3 day old transplants their first feeding, using the following levels from the botanicare chart:

7ml/g gro
5ml/g sweet
5ml/g karma
no guard yet, as I just bought it yesterday...

I noticed that the ph went down hardcore with the gro... down to around 3 with plain water to start. I usually up the water to 8/8.4 before beginning to add anything, and then have to add more (diluted) still to get up to 6.3. Is this normal?

pH 6.3
ppm 600 or so (with sweet and karma)

plants were only planted 3 days before this feeding (probably too soon, but many of them were really pale on the new growth)

They are growing healthy, but I do have some leaf twisting and my plants are a bit droopy... There has also been a little bit of the leaf fringes curling up. I noticed this twice about an hour before my lights turn off (maybe this was the reason, as they were getting ready for dark). My room temps are 70-72 in the dark, and 75-80 in the light. good temps.

I am very paranoid and concerned now that I do not under feed, as this has hurt me recently way more than any overfeeding ever has. (I got 3 and 3/4 off of 8 lights last time! so bad...) I am trying to make it from beginning to end with nice green leaves that stay straight and perky. I've never achieved this, although after my underfeeding last round, I gave them some cal max and they came back and finished really healthy with nice straight leaves. unfortunately, they had already started to bolt and didn't pack on much more weight. sourdiesel is a sativa predominant strain, and is really sensitive to ferts.. the only time I got 1Lb per light, I was flushing hard every second watering. 6 gals through 3 gal pots. This was extrremely time consuming, and could not be done with a single resevoir fill up... I have a 100 gallon res... I also believe that this is not necessary.

So I'm wondering if I should be using half the strength of the botanicare charts. If so, should I only half strength the base and karma and not the sugar? Should I go food water food water, or food food food food..... This strain shows overfeeding quickly in the small leaves. They will turn into claw shapes. I hope to avoid this altogether.

So, my hunch tells me that I fed too early, and that I should just give them water next time. I am switching to 12/12 on Sunday or Monday. This strain really shoots up (sativa), so I have to get 'er flowering soon, or they'll get too big/crowded.

Three more questions:
-When I water, should I have runoff, just enough to wet all the soil, or what?
-Should I leach once every 2 weeks? Should I do this with clearex? I've heard it can create problems if some remains in the soil before you feed...
-My plants are all kept small, so my ppm should probably be much lower than the charts, right? The final height of them is about 1.5-2', and they are more leggy and not bushy(again, Sativa predom... 60% sat, 40% ind apparently).

I know this post is long, but I really wanted to give you all the info I can think of... I will check back here over the next few days hoping to see some response... Also, I've been in coffee shops scouring these forums to try and find the info I'm looking for, so if this stuff is answered somewhere else, I apologize, but I don't have the time to hunt around any more. I appreciate your understanding...

I hope to hear back from someone soon.
Give thanks...
bless up!

[organic_sourdiesel]

ph 6.3 in, ph 5 out... wtf?

I'm using promix HP. I've only watered it twice... once with ph 6.3 for planting, then with ph 6.3, ppm 600 for the first feeding. I'm using botanicare. The runoff tests 4 days later came out at ph 5 and from 1000-1600 ppm! This is just nuts! I don't understand.

The HP is brand new, so the lime should still be in there... I didn't add any more dolomite, which could have been a mistake...

I've never seen such a drop. I'm flushing now, and I've only fed once. This is not cool. My leaf fringes are curled up, and there are some twisted leaves. Oh, and some of the lower fan leaves have rust spots.

So it turned out that Promix HP (high porosity) contains nutrients from the factory (as stinkyattic pointed out... thx).
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/hort/faci...s/proMixHP.pdf
So the plan is to not feed until the second week at the earliest, and then only with a mild nutrient solution. I'm thinking around 300-400ppm... I followed botanicare's instructions for seedlings, and this was way too much.

more to come...

[organic_sourdiesel]

trying to fix my soil...
Well, I took some ph/ppm tests and half of my garden read around 5.0ph/900-1000ppm, and the other half read 5.3ph/600-700ppm. The first half didn't get flushed as much as the second did. So last night I flushed them all with ph7.6 water. My res and # of plants only allows for 1 litre of water per plant, so that's all I can do, unless I use tap water that hasn't sit for 24hours... The tests I did today were only a little higher in ph, so I suppose I need to flush one more time with a high ph to try and get them back into a nice range.

The plants are looking hungry (they are pale in the new growth, and have rust spots on the older growth), and I'm worried about this progressing too far if they don't get food for another 4 days (time it will take them to dry out again after this flush). I'm sure there is still food in there, but I'm worried about the ratios after flushing like this... Maybe I'll flush them with a mild dose of calMax, or bloom/veg... I was thinking it would be a good idea to foliar feed them with a weak solution of half bloom and half veg (I'm in transition as of Monday). I am using botanicare pro veg and pro bloom soil. Does this sound like a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by growbe View Post
Optimum ph in promix is 5.6 to 6.2 You should adjust nutrient solution ph to about 5.8 to 6 after everything is added. This ph seems low but is necessary to make iron, manganese, zinc, copper, boron, and phosphorus available to the plant. At higher ph, these become less avail. to the plant.
Although stinkyattik suggested it, it is not feasible to repot my current grow into new soil now... That would be too much more of a cost. I'm guessing that I will have to feed with a higher ph to allow for the drop that seems to occur... A store owner in my town said to always feed with 6.8.... seems about right, as the ph in my runoff is always in the low 5s after 6.3 went in, for the last 3 or 4 crops. I wish I had used dolomite lime this time, and more of it in the past... I forgot that GH nutes are ph buffered... Botanicare seems to lower the ph in the peat in a MAJOR way.

I don't have a cam to show pics of my leaf fringes that are curled up. By fringes, I'm referring to the sides of the leaves...

As always, I appreciate the advice...
I'm considering switching back to buckets...

peace

and here is another of my follow-up posts, and it's a long one, fully detailing my setup:

tap water, etc... long post
Well, the reason I always let my tap water sit overnight with bubblers is to get rid of the chlorine that the city puts in it, not for the ph to move...

I mentioned in another post that I have had lockout/salt buildup before, and once I used the hose to keep flushing my 3 gallon pots, as it took amazing amounts of water to bring the ph up to 6.0. Even after doing this, my plants were deficient and never recovered, resulting in them finishing early by 3 weeks. This happened a second and third time. (sheesh!) The second time, I flushed, then with the pots still soaked, fed them a medium strength mixture. This did not work either. They kept getting more and more pale with lots of yellow dying leaves, and the plants finished early by about 2 weeks. The last time when it happened (I'm always putting in ph6.3/6.4 btw), I flushed them and then fed them, they were still yellowing, then I gave them cal-max, and they greened up again and the leaves were perfect until the end. Perfectly straight and a nice medium green. So it worked, but they were still bolting (finishing) already, and finished a couple weeks early. Every time this bolting has happened, the herb has been top quality, but the buds small, and plenty of "popcorn" bud... I've only been getting like 1/2 Lb per 1000watts.

So I'm worried about flushing away the only nutes left in the soil, but I'm also worried about lockout setting in. I'm thinking that it just might be a good idea to flush them hard tonight until the runoff is at least 6.0 or a bit higher. Then it will take about 4-5 days for them to dry out before I can get food to them, so this might contribute further to any kind of deficiency. They are looking paler in all of the new growth now... As I asked before, does anyone think it is a good idea to foliar feed them with this:
pbp grow 2.5mL/gal
pbp bloom soil 2.5mL/gal
should I add some calmax?
this is about 200 or 250 ppm (don't remember exactly, but around there)
I have this solution ready in my sprayer. I made it weak as the plants were overfed initially, but they really do look like they are lacking a bit now... I was going to apply it right before the lights turn off. good idea?

After all this, when I get back to regular feeding, I'm feeling that (botanicare nutes which they say to use every watering), I should only feed at 1/2 strength, and maybe only every other watering. Thoughts on this? Perhaps even less? their recipe goes up to like 25-30mL/g, and this seems way to high for diesel, which is pretty sensitive, being sativa predom...

My setup:
- 1000 watt hps x 8, four of which are air cooled
- lights are 18" above plants on average
- 78 1 gallon pots on four tables
- 3 oscillating fans
- drain tables on sawhorses with pond liner and drain lines
- room temps: day(light): 75-80 night(dark): 70-73
- room %RH: low... 30-35 (this is not the cause of my leaf fringes curling up. That has never happened before, and I grow in the summer and winter. I've been in this house for 4 years)
- large carbon can on exhaust. exhaust is on a switch, which is connected to a motor control so the fan switches to lower speed at night and the intake turns off
- 100 gallon res with four air stones and two aquarium heaters
- tri-meter ph/ppm/temp (the best, IMHO) properly calibrated
- 2 1500 watt heaters for dark time
- 400watt MH with 4 young mothers
- 2 sulfer burners in case powdery mildew sets in (then use 1 hour per day, which works great)
- 1 6 burner CO2 generator, which runs on a standard barbecue propane tank (not used until week 2 of bloom)
- organic sourdiesel week 1 bloom.

I have a very nice setup and perfect conditions. Perhaps a little more humidity would be nice, but it is not causing any problems. I have been growing for like 8 years, but am fairly new to soilless, and it has been giving me problems. We were having trouble keeping water temps down for the bucket hydro system, and switched to soil for the "forgiveness" of it. Just seems that all the nute companies instruct you to overfeed. I've used
GH, Advanced, back to GH and now am with Botanicare (I want to be organic). This seems to be the case whether we keep our girls small in 1gals or go bigger in 3gals. One of the best rounds with the diesel was when ever other watering, we were flushing 6 gals for every plant. This was WAY too much work. I've discovered the key is to not soak all the soil when you feed. Just a small bit that only gets the top wet, then twice as much water on the next irrigation.

Well... that's a lot for now. I'm hoping to give a complete picture of my setup and problems and experience. Perhaps I should start a log...

one love

[organic_sourdiesel]

stinkyattic added this advice to the end of my flushing regiment, which is also what it says to do in Jorge Cervantes' grower's bible:

The last step in the flushing process, if you're not harvesting within the next week or so, should be a heavy watering with a nute solution that is pH'd and at about 1/4 of what the manufacturer recommends. That should avoid deficiencies that were caused by removing the available nutes from the soil.

Well... I've managed to get things back on track. I did one more flush, and then a weak feeding. I came back after a 3 day snowboard trip, and my plants have been growing very fast and are looking really good. I ph tested last night, and the runoff was 5.8 out from 7 in... So it looks like it's still a bit low in the soil, but it's definitely much better. The ppm runoff was around 200 average, so I fed only the dry plants. I mixed up my botanicare nutes at 1/2 the botan chart strength, and the ppm was almost 1200. I used the following:

pureblend pro bloom soil: 15mL/g
Grotek calmax: 2.5mL/g
karma: 5mL/g
sweet: 7.5mL/g

This seemed to be way too high of a ppm, so I watered this down to about 800ppm, then added more calmax, karma and sweet to keep the initial 1/2 strength levels, as these were already on the light side... This resulted in a mixture that was about 900ppm. I'm still not sure about this strength for my sensitive Sativa dom. diesel... I'm thinking that 1/4 strength might be the way to go. I have questions about this below...

Botanicare suggests that you feed using their chart and EVERY watering. This just seems crazy. The guys at the shop told me to follow the directions and I can't go wrong. I don't believe they really know how to use Botanicare.

So.... If anyone is reading this, could you address these questions please?:

â?¢ If I go to 1/4 strength on the base nutrient (bloom or grow), should I go 1/4 strength on the others as well? Or should I go like 1/2 on the calmax and karma, and full on the sweet?

â?¢ Should I feed every watering as they say, or should I alternate food/water/food/water? Is this detrimental for the organisms in the soil? Why do they (botan) say to feed every irrigation?

â?¢ if I measure like 200-500ppm in the runoff, it's time to feed right? If I measure like 600-1000, I should water.... Does this sound about right?

I am accustomed to growing top grade, top dollar gear, and am concerned about achieving this with organics. I expect to possibly see some slightly smaller yields than those which are non organic, but that would be fine. I just don't want to make mistakes now that will diminish the potency of the diesel. It's pretty much the top dog in BC, and organic would top that.

now I've got my log going, so thanks for stopping by and reading, and thanks to all who offer up advice.

guidance and protection
O_S

[maspino1]

good choice!!!
i used liquid karma on my seed and on my one seedling who lost its entire root system
i foliar fed that one btw
but now my seed has turned into a super green seedling with a thick stem and that older seedling with no roots is still trying to grow its first set of serrated leaves and is still green

i actually have bloom, karma and gro and i premixed them according to instructions and
bottled them lol

left to right:
bloom & karma [1.5L]
gro & karma for veg [1.5L]
gro & karma for seedlings [750mL]

[texas grass]

bloom & karma [1.5L]
gro & karma for veg [1.5L]
gro & karma for seedlings [750mL]

its not advised to mix liquid nutrients together(premixing) cause it can cause lockouts

[stinkyattic]

i actually have bloom, karma and gro and i premixed them according to instructions and
bottled them lol
left to right:
bloom & karma [1.5L]
gro & karma for veg [1.5L]
gro & karma for seedlings [750mL]

LOL! I hear that 2007 is a fabulous vintage for either putting up or consuming immediately!

But Tex is right; components of the nutes can interact in unwanted ways when pre-mixed. Be careful! You should wait to mix your nutes until less than an hour before you will be using them.

[theelectrician]

wierd flushing shouldnt hurt the plants

[skunke]

you should never flush with just pure water as going from a high ppm to just plain water will cause a great shock to your plants, whenever flushing do so with a a very dilute solution