Some Bush Foes Vote Yet Again,With Their Feet: Canada or Bust

[Torog]

Some Bush Foes Vote Yet Again, With Their Feet: Canada or Bust
NY Times ^ | February 8, 2005 | RICK LYMAN

Kevin P. Casey for The New York Times
"The U.S. seems to be leading the
pack as the world spirals down,"
said Melanie Redman, who hopes
to move to Toronto.

VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Feb. 4 - Christopher Key knows exactly what he would be giving up if he left Bellingham, Wash. "It's the sort of place Norman Rockwell would paint, where everyone watches out for everyone else and we have block parties every year," said Mr. Key, a 56-year-old Vietnam War veteran and former magazine editor who lists Francis Scott Key among his ancestors.

But leave it he intends to do, and as soon as he can. His house is on the market, and he is busily seeking work across the border in Canada. For him, the re-election of President Bush was the last straw.

"I love the United States," he said as he stood on the Vancouver waterfront, staring toward the Coast Mountains, which was lost in a gray shroud. "I fought for it in Vietnam. It's a wrenching decision to think about leaving. But America is turning into a country very different from the one I grew up believing in."

In the Niagara of liberal angst just after Mr. Bush's victory on Nov. 2, the Canadian government's immigration Web site reported an increase in inquiries from the United States to about 115,000 a day from 20,000. After three months, memories of the election have begun to recede. There has been an inauguration, even a State of the Union address.

Yet immigration lawyers say that Americans are not just making inquiries and that more are pursuing a move above the 49th parallel, fed up with a country they see drifting persistently to the right and abandoning the principles of tolerance, compassion and peaceful idealism they felt once defined the nation.

America is in no danger of emptying out. But even a small loss of residents, many of whom cite a deep sense of political despair, is a significant event in the life of a nation that thinks of itself as a place to escape to.

Firm numbers on potential émigrés are elusive.

"The number of U.S. citizens who are actually submitting Canadian immigration papers and making concrete plans is about three or four times higher than normal," said Linda Mark, an immigration lawyer in Vancouver.

Other immigration lawyers in Toronto, Montreal and Halifax said they had noticed a similar uptick, though most put the rise at closer to threefold.

"We're still not talking about a huge movement of people," said David Cohen, an immigration lawyer in Montreal. "In 2003, the last year where full statistics are available, there were something like 6,000 U.S. citizens who received permanent resident status in Canada. So even if we do go up threefold this year, we're only talking about 18,000 people."

Still, that is more than double the population of Gettysburg, Pa. "For every one who reacts to the Bush victory by moving to a new country, how many others are there still in America, feeling similarly disaffected but not quite willing to take such a drastic step?" Mr. Cohen asked.

It will be six months, at least, before the Canadian government has any hard numbers on how many people are really making the move.

Melanie Redman, 30, assistant director of the Epilepsy Foundation in Seattle, said she had put her Volvo up for sale and hoped to be living in Toronto by the summer. Ms. Redman and her Canadian boyfriend, a Web site designer for Canadian nonprofit companies, had been planning to move to New York, but after Nov. 2, they decided on Canada instead.

"I'm doing it," she said. "I don't want to participate in what this administration is doing here and around the world. Under Bush, the U.S. seems to be leading the pack as the world spirals down."

Ms. Redman intends to apply for a conjugal visa, which can be easier to get than the skilled worker visa required of most Americans. To do so, she must prove that she and her boyfriend have had a relationship for at least a year, so she has collected supporting paperwork, like love letters, to present to the Canadian government.

"I'm originally from a poor, lead-mining town in Missouri and I know a lot of the people there don't understand why I'm doing this," she said. "Even my family is pretty disappointed. And the fact is, it makes me pretty sad, too. But I just can't bear to pay taxes in the United States right now."

Compared with the other potential émigrés interviewed, Ms. Redman was far along in planning.

Mike Aves, 40, a financial planner in Palm Beach, Fla., where he has been active in the Young Democrats, said he was finding it almost impossible from that distance to land a job in Canada. "I've told my wife, I'd be willing to take a step down, socioeconomically, to move from white-collar work to a blue-collar job, if it would get us to Canada," he said.

Many of those interviewed said the idea of moving to Canada had been simmering in the backs of their minds for years, partly as a reaction to what they saw as a rightward drift in the country and partly as a desire to live in a place they see as more tolerant, pacific and, yes, liberal.


Kevin P. Casey for The New York Times
Christopher Key, shown in
Vancouver last Wednesday, said
the re-election of President Bush
convinced him to move to Canada.

But for all, the re-election of Mr. Bush was decisive in their decision to take concrete steps.

"Not everybody is prepared to live their political values, but these are people who are," said Jason Mogus, an Internet entrepreneur in Vancouver whose Web company communicopia.net offers marketing services for progressive companies and nonprofit groups, and whose Web site at canadianalternative.com is often the first stop for Americans eager to learn about moving north.

"Immigration to Canada is not like packing your family in a car and moving across the state line," Mr. Mogus said. "It's a long process. It can take 18 months or even longer sometimes. And if you hire a lawyer to help you, it can cost thousands of dollars."

So Mr. Mogus said the response to the Web site, from all over the United States, had amazed him. Some are drawn by Canada's more tolerant attitude toward same-sex unions, he said, and there are a surprising number of middle-aged professionals.

"My wife and I have talked for a long time about perhaps retiring to a condo in downtown Vancouver," said Frederick Newmeyer, 61, a professor of linguistics at the University of Washington in Seattle. "But the election was the tipping point."

Since it may take all of the two years he has until retirement to get a permanent resident visa, Mr. Newmeyer said he and his wife had hired a lawyer and begun the paperwork.

Canadian officials decide on potential immigrants by awarding points for certain skills or attributes. Being 21 to 49 years old is worth 10 points, for instance. A bachelor's degree is worth 20, a master's 25, with up to 21 points for certain work experience and 24 points for being fluent in English and French. At the moment, 67 points are required to qualify for the visa.

Under the North American Free Trade Agreement, workers in certain jobs can also qualify for residency permits if they land a job in Canada.

Mr. Key has made several recent trips to scout for jobs in the Vancouver area. He thinks most Canadian employers would prefer to hire a Canadian.

Chris Mares, a recreation therapist in Albuquerque, said that he hoped to move to Canada in about a year, when he qualified for his pension, but that he could not do it without first landing a job.

"I put a bunch of applications in and filled out a bunch of forms and now I'm waiting to hear back," said Mr. Mares, 54. "But it's not easy. It's not like they open the door wide and say, 'Hey Americans, come on in.' "

Jerry Gorde may be taking the longest view.

"I'm on a 100-month plan," said Mr. Gorde, who runs Vatex, a company in Richmond, Va., that creates promotional campaigns for corporate clients.

A former civil rights marcher and antiwar protester, Mr. Gorde said he built his company in Virginia because the state was not one of America's liberal enclaves, hoping to spread progressive ideas in the heart of conservatism. He was once named the state's entrepreneur of the year.

"I think George Bush's re-election, in itself, is nothing compared to what happens, over the next 10 to 15 years, if he gets to make three or four appointments to the Supreme Court," Mr. Gorde said. "I foresee a much darker period in front of us."

Beginning now, Mr. Gorde plans to gradually shift his life from Richmond to one of the islands near Vancouver - buying a home, spending a little more time there each year, gradually extracting himself from his company in Virginia until, 100 months from now, his life will be Canadian.

"When I set my mind to something, I'm the most organized and driven person in the world," he said. "I have made this decision and I'm going to do it."

He knows that some who share his political views wonder why he does not stay in the United States and battle it out.

"I'm 53 years old, and I don't know if I have the energy to go out in the streets and organize again," Mr. Gorde said. "Or maybe it's just a matter of becoming a little bit spoiled at this point in my life."

Torog Reviewed by Torog on 02-08-2005. Some Bush Foes Vote Yet Again,With Their Feet: Canada or Bust Some Bush Foes Vote Yet Again, With Their Feet: Canada or Bust NY Times ^ | February 8, 2005 | RICK LYMAN Kevin P. Casey for The New York Times "The U.S. seems to be leading the pack as the world spirals down," said Melanie Redman, who hopes to move to Toronto. VANCOUVER, British Columbia, Feb. 4 - Christopher Key knows exactly what he would be giving up if he left Bellingham, Wash. "It's the sort of place Norman Rockwell would paint, where everyone watches out for everyone else and Rating: 5

[Libertarian Toker]

Ahh yes, the old look at them run gag. I wonder why they didn't say how many Canadians head south every year? They say they are leaving because, well at least the one guy did, of bushy's re-election. Are they really such sore losers that they would leave if they don't get their way? I guess if your going to write a full on propaganda piece like this article is, a vet would be the one to use as your example for the most emotional response possible. How can it be confirmed that there was even a guy named Christopher Key in nam, let alone confirm he was disgruntled enough to move based on the fact that bushy was re-elected? This story smells like shit, bullshit to be exact. It's a promotion to get more people to leave, and to get people to visit a canadian government web site.

You know, this may be part of what Dana's been talking about. Perception management on a large scale. They want us to think people are leaving the US in droves because of tyranny, when really it is the sore loser effect that is motivating the few, if there really is any at all, that are fleeing bushy. Hell, by the time they get through the paper work to move, there will be another liberal in the white house anyway. What then? Will they flock back home to be back in the country they fought for if we do get another liberal prez, or are they gone for good to the frozen tundra and soggy coasts of Canada? I wonder how many will fail and have to come crawling back to the US to survive?

Toker

[Torog]

Ahh yes, the old look at them run gag. I wonder why they didn't say how many Canadians head south every year? They say they are leaving because, well at least the one guy did, of bushy's re-election. Are they really such sore losers that they would leave if they don't get their way? I guess if your going to write a full on propaganda piece like this article is, a vet would be the one to use as your example for the most emotional response possible. How can it be confirmed that there was even a guy named Christopher Key in nam, let alone confirm he was disgruntled enough to move based on the fact that bushy was re-elected? This story smells like shit, bullshit to be exact. It's a promotion to get more people to leave, and to get people to visit a canadian government web site.

You know, this may be part of what Dana's been talking about. Perception management on a large scale. They want us to think people are leaving the US in droves because of tyranny, when really it is the sore loser effect that is motivating the few, if there really is any at all, that are fleeing bushy. Hell, by the time they get through the paper work to move, there will be another liberal in the white house anyway. What then? Will they flock back home to be back in the country they fought for if we do get another liberal prez, or are they gone for good to the frozen tundra and soggy coasts of Canada? I wonder how many will fail and have to come crawling back to the US to survive?

Toker

Howdy and good mornin LT,

Your response is excellent and hits the nail on the head. Like you said,by the time they wade through all the paper-work,there will probably be another liberal in the White House..God have mercy on us all-if it winds up being Hitlery the Hildabeast.

Some folks replied to this article at FreeRepublic,that it might be a good idea,that those who leave,must never be allowed to return or draw any goverment benefits..what say you ?

I don't hate Canada and I like almost all Canadians I meet here and over at MariHemp..I would like to visit Canada..but I dang sure ain't gonna move there because I don't like who's in the Oval Office..even if it winds up with Hitlery in there,I'd rather stay and fight.

I believe that you're probably right,about perception management on a large scale..it's done by both sides and the best way to fight it-is to keep informed.

Have a good one....Torog

[pisshead]

you mean hilary who supports bush's big government unconstitutional socialist/fascist policies? i'm surprised torog. i thought you didn't hold an allegiance to any party. if you looked at voting records, you might turn into a "democrat." so maybe you should just listen to the lies and accept big, tyrannical UN loving, open border and amnesty loving, anti-2nd amendment and pro torture conservatism...

when someone with a D gets into office, it's going to be fun pointing out the exact things bush did while watching you get angry and say how unamerican it is. when you have the opportunity to say how unamerican it is now, but there's the R next to bush's name, so forget that.

if hilary introduced a bill as president torog, that would forcibly drug any child (or any american) after getting a psychological exam by a government/pharma doctor...what would you say about her? what would that say about her character?

what about the constitution and bill of rights, do those matter? isn't that what's important here? both sides are destroying it as they pass through legislation constantly that you never read.

[Libertarian Toker]

God have mercy on us all-if it winds up being Hitlery the Hildabeast.

If it winds up being Hitlery, then your god has no mercy.

How you doing this fine day Torog? I hope all is well with you and yours.

"Some folks replied to this article at FreeRepublic,that it might be a good idea,that those who leave,must never be allowed to return or draw any goverment benefits..what say you ?"

I'd say that just ain't right. If their god teaches them to forgive, then what should their reaction to something like that be? I hope that you were not part of the "some folks" over there. If them folks were atheist, well then I could understand a little more their position. I would still not want a kid locked out because of a foolish chidhood mistake though. What if it was your child?

"it's done by both sides and the best way to fight it-is to keep informed."

I couldn't agree more!

Toker

[Euphoric]

torog you get a F

[ismokedope]

Ahh yes, the old look at them run gag. I wonder why they didn't say how many Canadians head south every year? They say they are leaving because, well at least the one guy did, of bushy's re-election.



More go south than north, by a big numer, i could look it up but i am a lazy ass. Most leave canada because you make more money there in america.
I wouldnt want to be a gay person in america, or a pot head. Its like a posioned enviroment now.







Are they really such sore losers that they would leave if they don't get their way?



Its like people who fled the taliban. If i was gay i wouldnt want to live near torag, he might burn you at the stake. People are fleeing a crazy war prez who is trying to get them killed in big crazy wars for no reason. All these security bulletins i see on CNN, that doesnt happen here. Maybe the canadian gov is doing shit about terror threats, but we have no code red on TV making people jumpy. No random searchs of cars either. I wouldnt want to live like that.




I This story smells like shit, bullshit to be exact. It's a promotion to get more people to leave, and to get people to visit a canadian government web site.


Maybe it is. Lots of people leave countries for other ones. Millions of canadians leave for america for a better job, to marry an american, so they can get a bunch of guns. Some people dont like canuck socialism, so they move to america. I dont care if they dont like canada, feel free to leave but i would also welcome them back if they decided to come back. Its just a country. You should be happy you are getting rid of american liberals, those are your mortal enemies.
I think we should have european union style work visas between the 2 countries so people could check out the country next door with no red tape hassles for 6 months or 2 years whatever. Then i could go to cali in the winter and back to canada in the summer. But instead now we have sattelites monitering the border because america thinks canada is a security threat.




. Hell, by the time they get through the paper work to move, there will be another liberal in the white house anyway. What then? Will they flock back home to be back in the country they fought for if we do get another liberal prez, or are they gone for good to the frozen tundra and soggy coasts of Canada? I wonder how many will fail and have to come crawling back to the US to survive?


Dont u live in colorado? The average temp year round in toronto or vancouver is higher, and we get less snow than you mountain boy.
If the right wing guy ever got elected in canada, i would think of moving to europe or austrailia.