right on i appreciate it, its just that they seem really deformed as leaf growth goes. it took forever for them to veg and now i've got hermes doesent sem like this is a very reliable type. ohh and if anyone can help me i sprayed dutch masters feminizer with penetrator twice and still got a bad ratio of males and what i thought were fem is now herms. should i keep spraying and hope the spray reverts the change before they have a chance to open or not risk the other ones and go ahead and pull it. any comments would be appreciated thanks so much