Perceived roundaboutness in the Bible

[Chong Version 2.0]

There is no such thing as free will. Every thing that we have done could have been predicted a million years ago if we had the know how. There is no such thing as random. The atoms bouncing around in our bodies behave like marbles or pool balls; their movements can be predicted. If things can be predicted at the atomic scale, they can be predicted at the universal scale.

History follows one course. Something wouldn't happen if it wasn't inevitable. Where the frick does a sky fairy who loves and tortures his creations fit into this?

Chong Version 2.0 Reviewed by Chong Version 2.0 on 11-09-2007. Perceived roundaboutness in the Bible I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track. How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself? Please reply with something about free will. If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers? Rating: 5

[Hardcore Newbie]

I have had a hard time understanding this fact also in the past but we have to understand that. Perfection would have to mean that you Are fullly Capable of makeing the right decision. It done not mean you have to. Adam knew God and knew God gave everything good and did everything good for him. He Choose to follow his wife who was deceived.

By this definition of perfect, then nearly everyone on the planet is perfect. by this definition, perfection is is a man that could give his excess money to someone who needs it more, but chooses not to. Perfection is a man that can choose not to murder, but does so anyways.

If that's the expectation you have for perfection, then saying that Jesus was a perfect human being doesn't really say much at all.

In Hebrew terms the word perfection draws from such verbs as sha-lam (come to completion) Ta-mam (be Completed) So he was fully able or completed and was able to follow God's laws perfectly.

then shouldn't english bibles be translated accordingly?

Everything else you've written is just explaining perfection as a very low bar that nearly anyone could meet.

I'm also still waiting to hear the logic of why God would set up the rules that He couldn't forgive Adam, waited some thousands of years for his "perfect" son to come along and sacrifice himself in order for mankind to be able to live in eternal happiness.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Personaly I would rather it be this way because If you were A Father would you want you Sons to serve you because it's right and thats just what they do? Or would you want them to love your ways and Choose to serve you?

If I were a father and I had made the rules to the universe, would I consider my son to be perfect if he didn't see the perfection in my rules? No, of course not. A perfect being is not one that says "these rules are the best rules and I can't see why anyone would not follow them" while proceeding to break those rules.

[Krogith]

By this definition of perfect, then nearly everyone on the planet is perfect. by this definition, perfection is is a man that could give his excess money to someone who needs it more, but chooses not to. Perfection is a man that can choose not to murder, but does so anyways.
No Perfection Is being able to Follow GOD Perfectly and You would have to Continue Doing to to remain Perfect.

If that's the expectation you have for perfection, then saying that Jesus was a perfect human being doesn't really say much at all.


then shouldn't english bibles be translated accordingly?
Most words out there have Verbs that are conected with them. To better understand a Word.

Everything else you've written is just explaining perfection as a very low bar that nearly anyone could meet.

No Perfection is the Ablity of Adhearing Exactly to Gods standards, We can NOT do this as Humans Today.

I'm also still waiting to hear the logic of why God would set up the rules that He couldn't forgive Adam, waited some thousands of years for his "perfect" son to come along and sacrifice himself in order for mankind to be able to live in eternal happiness.

God makes his own standards your correct. He has decided that he wants Freewilled Creation to Choose out of that Freewill to Love and Serve him.

What would be your way to stop anarchy from sprouting and still have Freewilled Creation Chooseing to Love you?

The question of what if we do things our own way and not God's has to be settled Forever or there would never be True Peace.

*If God just wiped out adam,eve and Satan right at the start, The angles and what ever new Creation would still have that Question, untell it was solved And.(God would seem like that ruler we talked about that just kills people every time they step the wrong way, With nothing backing up his way but his say so) All we would learn from this sort of God is that he is Powerful

*If Adam and Eve were forgiven Then why do we listion to God anyways He will ALWAYS forgive you. Thats what people today think, and look at how they act. Cheat on your wife goto confession and do it next week.

*Or then you have like a 3 strike rule or something, then people get a certain amount of Get Out Of Trouble Crads? All would not end with Peace and happyness for all Liveing

[Krogith]

If I were a father and I had made the rules to the universe, would I consider my son to be perfect if he didn't see the perfection in my rules? No, of course not. A perfect being is not one that says "these rules are the best rules and I can't see why anyone would not follow them" while proceeding to break those rules.

What makes Perfection HAVE to fit this Definition? A perfect being could think highly of him self, A perfect being could want to Rule them self. Could even of been trusting to much in there own self. If they keep thinking in thoses therms then I can see how they could trick them self Even Being Perfect.

But from what I'm hearing from you is that nothing Perfect Could have Freewill?

logicly I see why your stuck on this, If something knows it's the right way why on earth was Adam so far Off? He trusted to much in himself. Pride.

[Hardcore Newbie]

This

Perfection would have to mean that you Are fullly Capable of makeing the right decision. It done not mean you have to. Adam knew God and knew God gave everything good and did everything good for him. He Choose to follow his wife who was deceived.

conflicts directly with this

No Perfection Is being able to Follow GOD Perfectly and You would have to Continue Doing to to remain Perfect.

In one post you claim perfection is merely being capable to make the right decision (but not having to), and in the next post, you claim it to mean being able to follow God's word perfectly and having to continuing to do so in order to be perfect. Which definition would you like to stick with?

No Perfection is the Ablity of Adhearing Exactly to Gods standards, We can NOT do this as Humans Today.

God makes his own standards your correct. He has decided that he wants Freewilled Creation to Choose out of that Freewill to Love and Serve him.

What would be your way to stop anarchy from sprouting and still have Freewilled Creation Chooseing to Love you?

The first thing I would do is take away their apples until they apologized, but then again I wouldn't make a silly rule such as "don't eat that apple, you'll learn something". I would want my creations to have just as much knowledge as myself, if not more.

But, supposing I didn't want my creations to have knowledge, and supposing that I wanted to punish them for acquiring it, my first thought wouldn't be "I know how to save mankind, lets wait a few thousand years for my next real perfect son to die, and if people want to be forgiven for what adam and eve did, all they have to do is believe and love that son!"

Mine would go something like "Whoever does their best in following these perfect laws seems good enough for me". See how easy that is?

*If God just wiped out adam,eve and Satan right at the start, The angles and what ever new Creation would still have that Question, untell it was solved And.(God would seem like that ruler we talked about that just kills people every time they step the wrong way, With nothing backing up his way but his say so) All we would learn from this sort of God is that he is Powerful

Unfortunately the God of the Bible is exactly like this, god says don't kill, yet he does. To me this clearly states that the laws that he makes clearly don't apply to himself.

What makes Perfection HAVE to fit this Definition? A perfect being could think highly of him self, A perfect being could want to Rule them self. Could even of been trusting to much in there own self. If they keep thinking in thoses therms then I can see how they could trick them self Even Being Perfect.

You think that a perfect being would disagree with the LORD (himself being perfect as well)? If you say this, then you are saying it is PERFECT to disagree with God.

But from what I'm hearing from you is that nothing Perfect Could have Freewill?

I've said nothing of the sort. I'm saying that if the Lord's word is perfect, then a perfect being would always choose, using their own free will, the perfect choice. It's not that they can't choose the imperfect decision, they just aren't willing to.

logicly I see why your stuck on this, If something knows it's the right way why on earth was Adam so far Off? He trusted to much in himself. Pride.

Pride must be a perfect quality to have, if pride is indeed one of Adam's characteristics. He must get that from his dad.

[Krogith]

I wish i could just talk to you. Typeing can be missunderstood way to easy. We are still trying to understand the same point and it is becomeing trivial. I'm going to try and respond so you can understand my perspective. lets do 1 idea at a time also.

[Krogith]

This


conflicts directly with this



In one post you claim perfection is merely being capable to make the right decision (but not having to), and in the next post, you claim it to mean being able to follow God's word perfectly and having to continuing to do so in order to be perfect. Which definition would you like to stick with?

A perfect being has the ablity to Choose (out of freewill) to do whats right. They know whats right and wrong from what God has told them. They do not know everything they are still learning.

You took my 1st statement wrong I did not mean that a perfect person remains perfect once they choose the wrong way. Once you choose to go agenst God's laws (due to pride you have let build up). You are no longer perfect. Pride Comes from Freewill you have the ablity to choose to not do it Gods way.

So Creation is Made perfect in the sence that it now has the perfect chance to follow God's laws, once that creation chooses not to then the creation has choosen sin.

Perfection is not only the Ablity to but the Adhearce of, to remain in the perfect state. All perfection is really is the ablity of and the following of God's laws to the Letter.

[Krogith]

The first thing I would do is take away their apples until they apologized, but then again I wouldn't make a silly rule such as "don't eat that apple, you'll learn something". I would want my creations to have just as much knowledge as myself, if not more.

It wasn't do not eat the apple you'll learn something.

The Tree was not a test belive me or not. The Tree was a statement, that being- I God Know all Good and Bad, I will tell you and instruct you in what is Good and Bad. Adam and Eve were to learn from God not to follow there own ways.

But, supposing I didn't want my creations to have knowledge, and supposing that I wanted to punish them for acquiring it,

It was not to punish the aquiring of knowledge, It was an awnser to Gods statement. That he knows whats good and Bad and would guide them.

my first thought wouldn't be "I know how to save mankind, lets wait a few thousand years for my next real perfect son to die, and if people want to be forgiven for what adam and eve did, all they have to do is believe and love that son!"

To awnser the question that was brought up, wich is what happend when we rule our self and do things our own way.

Mine would go something like "Whoever does their best in following these perfect laws seems good enough for me". See how easy that is?

They went Directly Agenst God's command. They only had 1 law also wich was to not eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad. Only God has the right to decide whats Good and Bad for his Creations. Not the creations themself.

[Krogith]

You think that a perfect being would disagree with the LORD (himself being perfect as well)? If you say this, then you are saying it is PERFECT to disagree with God. I think it is perfect that we are allowed to disagree with God. We never choose to be Born, so if you wish to not exsist you can.

I've said nothing of the sort. I'm saying that if the Lord's word is perfect, then a perfect being would always choose, using their own free will, the perfect choice. It's not that they can't choose the imperfect decision, they just aren't willing to.

The perfection you discribe makes the creation not really have free choice. If something has Freechoice then it could choose to fail.

Pride must be a perfect quality to have, if pride is indeed one of Adam's characteristics. He must get that from his dad.

This bring to mind the other post on flaw in ID. Pride in context is a Good quality. Haveing Pride in your God for exsample. Pride could be to have the good connotation of a sense of delight or elation arising from some act or possession.

But then like anything you can change it from good to bad and be prideful of yourself, wich then comes with a whole chest of Bad Trates.