Perceived roundaboutness in the Bible

[Hardcore Newbie]

I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track.

Adam was a perfect human and Gave his life away when he rebeled.

How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will.

Every one of us was born from Adam and Thus Sinful.

If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?

Every human death can not add up to Adams Death (a perfect human) So Jesus (another perfect Human)Was needed to come down to Die for Mankind.

Since God is all powerful, does he really "need" to do anything in a specific way? If God wanted to forgive us for an original sin, it wouldn't take another perfect person to die, it would just take him saying "I won't hold this against you anymore", and be done with it. So why the roundaboutness?

Jesus perfect life and death was an exchange for mankinds Sins. Like the Sacrafices the people of israel were commanded by Law to do, Thoses were in fact a simbol of Jesus Dieing for all mankinds sins, so once Jesus Died they no longer needed to offer up animals for there sins sence Jesus died for all mankinds perfectly.

Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

Hardcore Newbie Reviewed by Hardcore Newbie on 11-08-2007. Perceived roundaboutness in the Bible I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track. How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself? Please reply with something about free will. If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers? Rating: 5

[Coelho]

If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?

Well... i dont think the sins itselves are inherited, but only the pecaminous nature. People are very (if not completly) influencied by their raising. So, if their parents are sinful, its impossible to be raised as a perfect person. Thus the passing of sins from generation to generation.

Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

I think its not a requirement of God, but a thing caused by the human nature. For we feel that we were forgiven, we must believe that we were forgiven. But the human nature is not so good to believe that just repenting is enough for obtaining forgiveness. We humans believe that MUST be some form of punishment for our bad actions, and only after the punishment the forgivness is obtained. So, the need of sacrifices. Killing a pure and perfect animal, then burning it, under the belief that the animal contained all your sins would be enough to fulfill the human's need for punishment, and then, after making the sacrifice, the sinner would believe that he was forgiven.

[Krogith]

How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will. Sorry The Bible says We are all Give'n Free Will. You Can Choose Not to serve God.


If this is true, and sin is inherited, does this mean we are held accountable, in God's eyes, for every sin of our forefathers?
No, we are sinful and needed a perfect human to give his life for us. To have a even exchange.


Since God is all powerful, does he really "need" to do anything in a specific way? If God wanted to forgive us for an original sin, it wouldn't take another perfect person to die, it would just take him saying "I won't hold this against you anymore", and be done with it. So why the roundaboutness? If God acted aginst his own Justice He would not be A Perfect God. The question was asked and God had to prove his point, That is Can we do things our own way and not listion to God. What happends if you go aginst God?

If God Just killed everyone who disobayed him and didn't have anything suporting it would you think him a God of Justice?

All that you see and our history proves Forever that mankind Can Not Rule them self and we have to Follow God. After this Judicial Court case is Proven Perfect God will Act and Then distroy all who Go aginst his will and be justfyed in doing so.

Why would God require sacrifices in the first place?

To Speak with God you have to be Perfect, Sinful humans can not speak to god in our state we need atonement or forgiveness of our sins, to speak with or have direction from God. Befor Jesus Died for all Mankind we had to offer up a sacrifices because of our sinful state. To pray to God and so God could Write the Bible by speaking to sinful Man. After Jesus Death we No longer needed a sacrifice for our sins because Jesus Died for them.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Please read it. It is talking about how we now have Jesus who died for us to Freely approach God with Freeness of speech. So for God to be able to hear your Prayer you have to know that Jesus Died for your sins and express that.

[Krogith]

I'm posting a reply in a new thread to keep the other one on track.

How can a perfect being act in a way to make itself imperfect? Wouldn't a perfect being refrain from any action that would cause imperfection, by the nature of the word "perfect" itself?

Please reply with something about free will.

Would God be happy with a bunch of Robots Serveing him? Forced Love? He wants people who want to Love him and his ways.

Psalms 37:11,12 28,29 A New Earth

John 5 28,29 All thoses who have Died have payed for there sin in Death and will be Resurrected

[Hardcore Newbie]

Sorry The Bible says We are all Give'n Free Will. You Can Choose Not to serve God.

Correct, a perfect being has the choice, but if the being were truly perfect, they'd always choose the perfect choice. If that being makes an imperfect choice, then by definition alone they are not perfect.

Either the being was imperfect, or the being is perfect, and can only make perfect choices, some of which include sin.

They can either be perfect and make only perfect choices, or they can be imperfect and allowed to make imperfect choices. One might be perceived as perfect until a point of imperfection, but hindsight is always 20/20.

No, we are sinful and needed a perfect human to give his life for us. To have a even exchange.

Again, why is it "needed" if God is all powerful and can do anything He wanted? He could forgive everyone in any which way he wanted.

I'm just trying to understand why would the perfect being, God, choose such a round about way of forgiving people? Banish from the garden of Eden, give them arbitrary rules that don't matter for the generations after Christ, only to the ones before. This is the method a perfect being takes? I would think that perfection would include something called logic, So in order for God to be perfect, this has to be the most logical way to forgive two people for what equates to "not listening to God".

So if you were an all powerful being, and two of your creations disobeyed you, you believe that this is the most logical way to forgive two people who've disobeyed you?

If God acted aginst his own Justice He would not be A Perfect God.

The problem is that He is all powerful, He is the one who decides what is just. Why would a logical being place a rule on Itself that states "In order to forgive someone who disobeys me, I have to do [all that stuff in the Bible]"?

Again, if you were God, being all powerful, all knowledgeable, and perfect, you would choose to place this restriction upon yourself while creating your version of Justice? What purpose does it serve?

To Speak with God you have to be Perfect, Sinful humans can not speak to god in our state we need atonement or forgiveness of our sins, to speak with or have direction from God. Befor Jesus Died for all Mankind we had to offer up a sacrifices because of our sinful state. To pray to God and so God could Write the Bible by speaking to sinful Man. After Jesus Death we No longer needed a sacrifice for our sins because Jesus Died for them.

I'll just ask again why this method is the most logical and reasonable course of action. Why would a perfect being set up rules of the universe that dictate "people that sin will not be able to talk to me, unless they sacrifice animals to speak to me, well... until I send Jesus to be sacrificed, then people who believe that this happened and that Jesus is God, those people can also speak with me ".

Hebrews 4:14-16 Please read it. It is talking about how we now have Jesus who died for us to Freely approach God with Freeness of speech. So for God to be able to hear your Prayer you have to know that Jesus Died for your sins and express that.

In order for me to believe in the Bible, I need to be shown why God makes, what I consider to be, such unreasonable and irrational decisions.

[Krogith]

Correct, a perfect being has the choice, but if the being were truly perfect, they'd always choose the perfect choice. If that being makes an imperfect choice, then by definition alone they are not perfect.

Either the being was imperfect, or the being is perfect, and can only make perfect choices, some of which include sin.

Forced to choose a path due to the fact that God says it's right isn't Free Choice. God wants us as Huamns to Freely Serve him.

They can either be perfect and make only perfect choices, or they can be imperfect and allowed to make imperfect choices. One might be perceived as perfect until a point of imperfection, but hindsight is always 20/20.



Again, why is it "needed" if God is all powerful and can do anything He wanted? He could forgive everyone in any which way he wanted.

God wants people useing Freewill to Want to Love him and serve him, people would not love and want to serve him if his ways were unjustfyed.

I'm just trying to understand why would the perfect being, God, choose such a round about way of forgiving people?

He loves humans so much he is willing to go through all this crap and waste all this time to prove FOREVER that his ways are right.

Banish from the garden of Eden, give them arbitrary rules that don't matter for the generations after Christ, only to the ones before.

The Laws are not there but what the Laws were teaching are still in play.

This is the method a perfect being takes? I would think that perfection would include something called logic, So in order for God to be perfect, this has to be the most logical way to forgive two people for what equates to "not listening to God".

Satan started the rebellion.God is not forgiveing Adam and Eve, he has done all this so we as Adams offspring have a chance to live in perfection. And the Angles to not question God Ever again

So if you were an all powerful being, and two of your creations disobeyed you, you believe that this is the most logical way to forgive two people who've disobeyed you?

Remember this is to settle things FOREVER, and do Not forget the angles have been tested by all this also. This Test end the rebellion Forever for ALL CREATION.


The problem is that He is all powerful, He is the one who decides what is just. Why would a logical being place a rule on Itself that states "In order to forgive someone who disobeys me, I have to do [all that stuff in the Bible]"?

God is perfect and he wants people out of Freewill to Love him. If God didn't stick to his standards he would be a liar. All this that Humans have gone through is nothing compaired to Forever.

Again, if you were God, being all powerful, all knowledgeable, and perfect, you would choose to place this restriction upon yourself while creating your version of Justice? What purpose does it serve?

In the End Goal is billions of humans who want to serve God because he is perfect in his ways and everything he does is justice, We can love a God like that, we were created to love him out of Freewill thats what God Wanted and is going to Get when this is over.


I'll just ask again why this method is the most logical and reasonable course of action. Why would a perfect being set up rules of the universe that dictate "people that sin will not be able to talk to me, unless they sacrifice animals to speak to me, well... until I send Jesus to be sacrificed, then people who believe that this happened and that Jesus is God, thosepeople can also speak with me ".

Jesus is not God! Jesus is God's Son. The 1st of all Creation. The way he has done this is perfect. God is proveing to all Creation his ways are Perfect.

If he just Zaped Adam and Eve and Satan then people forever could say hey maybe they hade a point why did you just kill them, I bet mankind could rule them self. How would you stop it just kill everyone who questions your killings?

If a ruler killed every man who did something he didn't like, would you love this ruler for his justice? Would you want to serve a ruler who just killed people like that? OR would you rather a ruler have a court system that has experenced a past Judicial Court Case that prove God's ways are Justice. Our world is that Judicial Court Case, it is almost perfectly Done and sealed.


In order for me to believe in the Bible, I need to be shown why God makes, what I consider to be, such unreasonable and irrational decisions.

It is logical. To end it Forever and as soon as rebellion pops up. Why would God wait to Clear the issue?

[Hardcore Newbie]

Forced to choose a path due to the fact that God says it's right isn't Free Choice. God wants us as Huamns to Freely Serve him.

No one's forcing them not to sin. The argument is that if on of the virtues of perfection is to abstain from sin, then a perfect being will always to choose not to sin. It's not a matter of being forced to make the right choice, it's the matter of always making the right choice. How can perfection chose to be wrong? Implying that Adam and Eve made the wrong choice means that they aren't perfect. The fact that they chose freely doesn't negate that a supposedly prefect being somehow made a choice in error, which means that they aren't perfect.

God wants people useing Freewill to Want to Love him and serve him, people would not love and want to serve him if his ways were unjustfyed.

I asked why he needed to sacrifice a person (we need to sacrifice a perfect human, you said), when He's the one who makes up the rules. I'm asking, why not just forgive the people instead of going through all this silliness.

He loves humans so much he is willing to go through all this crap and waste all this time to prove FOREVER that his ways are right.

I'm asking why it's the most logical way to approach forgiveness. In order to show me how it's logical, you need to show me the reasoning why this is the most logical route to forgiveness. You need to make an argument, not an excuse. The fact that He spent a lot of time on a really contrived version of forgiveness, doens't make a strong argument.

The Laws are not there but what the Laws were teaching are still in play.

That statement was just showing the roundaboutness of God's forgiving ways, I'm not even suggesting we should be under "old law".

Satan started the rebellion.God is not forgiveing Adam and Eve, he has done all this so we as Adams offspring have a chance to live in perfection. And the Angles to not question God Ever again

Again, I'm not asking for the story, I'm asking why God's ways of forgiveness are the most logical. I don't care about what He's done, I care about the why.

Remember this is to settle things FOREVER, and do Not forget the angles have been tested by all this also. This Test end the rebellion Forever for ALL CREATION.

Again I ask what you would do if you were in God's situation. In God's situation, if Adam and Eve disobeyed you, why would you banish them from your garden, give them the rules that God did, and make a perfect human some amount of time later to be sacrificed, when you could just forgive Adam and Eve, if that's what you truly wanted?

God is perfect and he wants people out of Freewill to Love him. If God didn't stick to his standards he would be a liar. All this that Humans have gone through is nothing compaired to Forever.

You're still not answering a single question. God *makes* the standards. If you were in the middle of dictating the laws of the universe (and for yourself), why would you make a rule that states that the only way you can forgive a sinner for breaking your rules is to banish them from eden and etcetera?

In the End Goal is billions of humans who want to serve God because he is perfect in his ways and everything he does is justice, We can love a God like that, we were created to love him out of Freewill thats what God Wanted and is going to Get when this is over.

I'm asking for the purpose of such a roundabout way of forgiving someone, that's all.

Jesus is not God! Jesus is God's Son. The 1st of all Creation. The way he has done this is perfect. God is proveing to all Creation his ways are Perfect.

Depending on who you ask, I suppose. but if He's proving to all that his ways are the most logical and perfect. You're just stating that they are perfect, but keep forgetting the "why?".

If he just Zaped Adam and Eve and Satan then people forever could say hey maybe they hade a point why did you just kill them, I bet mankind could rule them self. How would you stop it just kill everyone who questions your killings?

This is on forgiveness, remember? Why would God kill people he's trying to forgive?

Furthermore, If he "just zapped Adam and Eve" then there would be no more people, so where would they get this idea from?

If a ruler killed every man who did something he didn't like, would you love this ruler for his justice?

God does exactly that in some cases.

Would you want to serve a ruler who just killed people like that?

Of course not, which is why I wouldn't serve a Xian God, even if he did exist.

It is logical. To end it Forever and as soon as rebellion pops up. Why would God wait to Clear the issue?

You're assuming that the only other logical option than animal sacrifice and such is death, and ignoring the easiest and most straight forward to forgiving someone...

Genuine Forgiveness.

[Krogith]

Adam and Eve are Dead Forever. They are not getting forgiven. After this test is over and we have it as proof of what happends going agenst God's laws. God is going to Rule the world he has Set up Jesus as his acting King and anyone who does not want to serve God and his Laws will be Dead Forever.

This world you see around you is a Test being proven. God knew we could not rule our self, but Satan and then adam and eve and many more have Tryed to Rule them self. All that have tryed have Failed, proveing God's Laws as Right.

Once the Test of this court case is over all will be allowed to Choose ither to serve God or Die Forever.

It's like a Math teacher is teaching a class, One child says out loud No thats ALL wrong Everything your teaching is Wrong. The Teacher doesn't just kick him out and cause people to wonder if he had a point. The teacher is letting the child do the work on the chalk board and prove that he didn't know what he was talking about. The child has been allowed to try every type of theory out there. The Teacher then would keep a record of this and from then on never has another child at the chalk board, but instead gets to show any Wrong thinking Children what that other child tryed and did.


Edit: Adam and Eve were told they are going to Die they were not given any rules.

[Hardcore Newbie]

Adam and Eve are Dead Forever. They are not getting forgiven. After this test is over and we have it as proof of what happends going agenst God's laws. God is going to Rule the world he has Set up Jesus as his acting King and anyone who does not want to serve God and his Laws will be Dead Forever.

This world you see around you is a Test being proven. God knew we could not rule our self, but Satan and then adam and eve and many more have Tryed to Rule them self. All that have tryed have Failed, proveing God's Laws as Right.

Once the Test of this court case is over all will be allowed to Choose ither to serve God or Die Forever.

It's like a Math teacher is teaching a class, One child says out loud No thats ALL wrong Everything your teaching is Wrong. The Teacher doesn't just kick him out and cause people to wonder if he had a point. The teacher is letting the child do the work on the chalk board and prove that he didn't know what he was talking about. The child has been allowed to try every type of theory out there. The Teacher then would keep a record of this and from then on never has another child at the chalk board, but instead gets to show any Wrong thinking Children what that other child tryed and did.


Edit: Adam and Eve were told they are going to Die they were not given any rules.

So you have no answer to any of my points or questions, or just don't want to answer them, and you want me to take your word for this? And with your teacher analogy, the teacher will show them *why* they are wrong, you still haven't shown me any of the "why".

[Krogith]

So you have no answer to any of my points or questions, or just don't want to answer them, and you want me to take your word for this? And with your teacher analogy, the teacher will show them *why* they are wrong, you still haven't shown me any of the "why".

Why God wants people to Choose to Love him with Freewill? I'm not understanding your question of Why then.

You said it your self that you would not want to serve a Ruler that just kills anyone who go's agenst his word. Well God does not want to be like that. He is showing us THE why as we sit here today and read the news about Wars and Death and Hunger. This is why we have to do it god's Way this world you see today is the what happends.

The thing that needed to be Fixed was the Idea of what happends when you do things your own way and not God's.