Quote Originally Posted by meatw4d
Well we pretty much know that everything that exists involved energy, correct? Thunder, life, whatever you want to come up with... it all had to start somewhere and something had to fuel it, and whatever that spark was, I'm pretty sure we're attributing that to God.
I once heard this put another way by a Muslim. "Because every movement requires a prior action, there must have been an original, eternal, unmoveable mover". I think that's a fine hypothesis. But that's where I find it illogical, assuming it's correct, to attribute this "unmovable mover" to God. God is this being of whom we attribute human characteristics; consciousness, compassion, jealousy, angry, love. These are all products of biological beings that exist as a result of DNA and a complex asortment of minerals and chemical reactions. Why should they suddenly occure independently of these so-far-necessary factors?

If god doesn't have these attributes, why call it God? Or, why not call it God, but maybe then "God" isn't a being to be worshipped, only a unique singularity that caused a chain reaction of events.

Whatever God is, he/she/it has the power to create. Making something from nothing has to have an explanation behind it, and intelligent design seems legitimate to me.
It is legitimate; a legitimate hypothesis. "How'd this happen? Here's an idea...." To me it takes the mystery out of life when you stop at the first idea we can think of, when there could be incredibly ideas out there so amazing our brains cannot yet formulate them! To me it hinders this process of discovery to stop at the simple answer, even though we're far from any conclusive evidence.
Try deep introspective meditation some time, maybe even with Salvia as I do once in a while. Sometimes answer can come to you that you wouldn't have even considered. Even if they don't, it is rewarding merely to strive for them.

Also, is it better to believe in something in this life or to believe that you'll never know what that something is? I'd rather live with faith, personally.
I'd rather not jump to assumptions just to satsify my need to know. The Universe is an incredible and complex place full of mystery, I wouldn't dare be so arrogant as to claim to understand it all.

Let's say, hypothetically, that there wasn't a God. Don't you think that the norms and morals associated with faith are beneficial to society anyway? Not the extremists, but those that try to have reasonably good intentions?
Look at the 10 Commandments. "Thou shalt not kill", "Don't steal", "honor your parents". These are good morals, but they are not inventions of religion, only morals that religion adopted. The bible and such are a start, but there's a long way to go. The moral code held therein isn't perfect, I want to see a humanity that strives to seek knowledge and discover how we can transform this species of ours into something beautiful and free of suffering.
And just because there's no belief in God, doesn't mean there's nothing to be had. The Buddhist philosophy is entirely independant of dieties of any sort. It is a philosophy of purifying ones mind, liberating ones self from ignorance and suffering, and bringing peace and compassion to all life you come in contact with. This is why I follow the philosophy personally.

Without any faith, I think like a lot more people would feel like they've got nothing to lose.
I think you're right. Unfortunately a lot of people live trapped in ignorant mindsets, controlled by their impulses, perpetuating their own suffering and the suffering they impose upon others. For some, religion can help hugely with this, for others like myself we seek out philosophies that help us understand the world and our own nature, and for others still (myself included) we must find our own path. Religion, belief in God, undoubtedly helps millions of people and I'm glad for it. But when it comes right down to it, I'm most concerned with reality, not desire. It's a deeply held belief of mine that we need to understand reality to the deepest degree to master it and liberate ourselves from suffering, end harm to others.



BathingApes, please keep it more respectful. I understand that it can be frustrating debating these issues, it can be for both sides. Whether or not you, me, or the Christians are right is beside the point. We need a world of compassion for our fellow lifeforms, we need to end the cycle that causes humans to harm each other.