Some front line views of the war against God.

[mfqr]

Firstly, im not saying things have to be proven for them to exist, that doesnâ??t make sense because elements of life exist which have not been proved yet - like conscious air, or intuition etc etc.

Read what I wrote again, im just saying teachers should ATLEAST tell students that evolution has still to be proven to be true, there are numerous missing links and Darwin also stole much of his work from his Grandfather (not that this has anything to do with the validity of the theory of evolution) - Evolution births ideas such as eugenics - which im sure you understand has resulted in some horrid experimental catastrophes - teaching that intelligence is in a blood line and power is in a blood line is not morally correct.

Evolution itself has no morality - Richard Dawkins - a profound evolutionist has spoken of the complete lack of morality in terms of evolution.

And if you donâ??t prove anything, then your basis is only a hypothesis - what if the theory of gravity was in actual fact - not right? It was only shown to be true when it was PROVED.

Your correct in a sense, but its a question of odds, often some theories just happen to be true once proven, some people create good theories, yet there are theories LIKE EVOLUTION OF US which needs to be proven true because - they may just be wrong.

Sorry to ramble on, I hope you understand my point.

Of course things do not have to be proven for them to exist but it would be nice to know if we actually did evolve from lower form animals into higher forms without any intervention, I was just saying people should not automatically rule out intelligent design as they do in schools, because they dont even give the kids an option (this is all I was saying).

There should be a balance in our schooling system by which children in science classes are still told that evolution is not proven IN OUR STORY (because it simply is not) there are numerous missing links blah blah.

Your American schooling system does not teach the benefits of communism and socialistic Governing im guessing?




As stories of the bible are told at the beginning it should be said that nothing of the existence of Jesus Christ can be proven.

The same applies for the theories we teach our children of evolution.

They should know that it is as much BULL$%$£ a theory as the flying spaghetti monster. AND intelligent design.





Well, neither is evolution when you try and explain our existence.

I noticed someone speaking of 2 theories to choose from?

Creationism or evolution?

How about a combination of these?

Perhaps we were created and designed and engineered to evolve at such a rapid rate compared to our cousin animals whom according to evolutionists such as Dawkins have also been on the same evolutionary path as us.

If we can genetically engineer animals, and considering the size of the universe (and the probability of the existence of intelligent 'aliens') then why cant they also engineer "animals"? (us).

Haha, I understood your point from the start. I just felt like replying in the way I did, because the way you worded it meant that it has to be proven to be true, and you did in this post again, too. I knew what you meant, don't worry - I'm an intelligent being .

But I see what you're saying, that God gives morality. You don't think we're smart enough to come up with our own ideas of morality? That perhaps our consciousness and intelligence evolved over time, thus everyone naturally taking the course of Altruism? Most people help others out if need be, and not all of them believe in God either. And since they don't believe in God, then God doesn't share his morality with them. You know, it's funny though, because all religious people will always find an excuse and justification for anything - because it's all covered in religion.

"God gives morality" - How is that even a working argument? It isn't, because you have not yet even proven that God exists. We have way more evidence for evolution than for God. A lot of religious people use the Bible to actually argue. Which is a totally incorrect way of arguing, because one has yet to prove that the Bible is right about everything. It's really too bad that people are so brainwashed. I feel sorry for people who have dug their great intelligence and consciousness into a deep hole with religion. Sorry, that's just my view. But it is a real sad story, and hopefully one day this will all be ended.

I think Evolution is the closest we have gotten to how it is, but it's possible it's different. God creating everything? Give me a damn break... it's such a load of crap. Only the ones involved in religion can't see it - we atheists and agnostics can smell it from a mile away.

[Fallen_Icarus]

There is so much more evidence that evolution is how things came to be than that God just put it all there

And what do you think 'put your theory here'?

What 'put the evolutionary process' here?

Did it just form out of thin air and start evolving into different animals?

Well according to evolution (and if you know anything about the subject), we evolved from rocks!

Did you just make this comment up yourself with no thought or reasoning? I mean have you actually researched into the lack of evidence supporting the theory of evolution?

The fact that I speak of 'intelligent design' should not auto drive your brain toward me indoctrinating people into a Judea Christian God creationist perspective of reality and existence. All I am saying is that it should be taken into account that there is as much evidence for evolution to be truth as much as there is evidence to prove that everything was created by God.

I am not a creationist and you are free to form an attack on creationism all you like but to not firstly understand the complete lack of evidence for evolution firstly this is a pillar of evidence one must overcome!

Evolutionists believe they are climbing the mountain of knowledge - just remember when you reach the top a creationist could be already sitting there.:thumbsup:

Evolutionists say that apes have the same amount of chromosomes (donâ??t quote me on this) as humans, well there is something else which has the same amount of chromosomes than humans, and its tobacco lol. Did we evolve also from tobacco?

So may I suggest to the atheist/evolutionist to do research on the actual validity of your own 'belief' before making comments on how "ignorant" and "futile" the creationists argument is.

This is all im saying.

Just because we don't know every step of the way from a single-celled organism to our current state doesn't mean we can't say that certain things had a certain likelihood of happening.

And it also does not mean you can flood schools with this belief, call it truth while dismantling any creationists perspectives or arguments when you yourself are defending a belief which was founded by a plagiarist and which gave birth to some of the most immoral theories on human control around today.

The reason intelligent design shouldn't be taught in schools is because it simply is not science. Evolution, however, is. When you take an honest look at both, you can't spin it any other way.

May I suggest you read a book called 'Islam and Science' and then tell me that religion has not aided science in any way in history.

This is a joke.

Science took its foundations from religious doctrines and ancient civilizations, science didnâ??t just begin in America, people such as the Mayans, Aztecs, Hindus, Caral, Sumerians, the Islamic Empire etc, all of these people had profound knowledge of the universe, nature, the human body, physics and chemistry etc not to mention the profound knowledge of our solar system, the Egyptians etc, all also were incredibly spiritual and religious.

Some of these civilizations lived for a millennia in peace, (research the 'Caral'), ancient civilizations built or created what we use today such as forms of Government, politics, socialistic idealism, mathematics and construction which we cannot yet match (pyramids).

Like I said, you should respect religion.

To do not is ignorant.

[Fallen_Icarus]

But I see what you're saying, that God gives morality

I do not recall saying this, infact I do not recall saying anything about where morality should or does come from.

All I said is there is a considerable question of morality about evolution, you could say to an evolutionist - "but what about morality?" If survival of the fittest has no morality one should kill one another to survive, is this moral? (the evolutionist MUST answer yes or he/she will be in contradiction).

I hope your reading my posts thoroughly and not just skimming the text! lol

Im not saying that all evolutionists are evil (but there is a question of morality which must be placed to them, which often as dawkins experiences on a regular basis, cannot answer) I dont proclaim that evolutionists are vindictive people who are looking out for only themselves, often people cannot live happily knowing they have done harm to others, its called guilt and that is a form of punishment.

There is good and evil in every school of thought, you will find corruption in religion aswel as in evolution you will also find good in each because good and evil lies within us all, this is the reason why it follows us into every doctrine of belief, system of governing or theory we create.

I am just saying to the evolutionists whom castigate the terrible attrociousness of religion to firstly think of their own belief and what that has contributed in terms of evil beliefs and doctrines such as eugenics as one particular example im sure you are familiar with.

"God gives morality" - How is that even a working argument? It isn't, because you have not yet even proven that God exists.

I never once put forward this arguement, I have not once even said I believe or do not believe in God.

I presume you are not directly debating with me and simply asking good questions.

A lot of religious people use the Bible to actually argue. Which is a totally incorrect way of arguing, because one has yet to prove that the Bible is right about everything. It's really too bad that people are so brainwashed. I feel sorry for people who have dug their great intelligence and consciousness into a deep hole with religion. Sorry, that's just my view. But it is a real sad story, and hopefully one day this will all be ended.

Go on youtube.com and type in "Dr Zakir Naik" and then come back and let me know if its had any effect on your current opinion.

I think Evolution is the closest we have gotten to how it is, but it's possible it's different. God creating everything? Give me a damn break... it's such a load of crap. Only the ones involved in religion can't see it - we atheists and agnostics can smell it from a mile away.

Well whats the atheists Bible?

The origin of species?

Whos their Jesus? their God? - Charles Darwin?

Do you see the paradox?

[cadmiumblimp]

I mean have you actually researched into the lack of evidence supporting the theory of evolution?

No, I can't say that I have, though I do believe I know enough to say that it is quite plausible and much more plausible than...other things.

The fact that I speak of 'intelligent design' should not auto drive your brain toward me indoctrinating people into a Judea Christian God creationist perspective of reality and existence.

This would be fine, but the words 'intelligent design' actually refer to a very specific viewpoint put forth by fundamentalist Christians. To be honest, because of that, I've always seen 'intelligent design' as a bit of a misnomer, since it has nothing to do with science. Myself, I believe it's very likely there are higher powers out there that may or may not have had a role in our creation, but I believe that SCIENCE is more on the side of our having evolved from SOMETHING, rather than everything having just appeared here over seven days.

Evolutionists believe they are climbing the mountain of knowledge - just remember when you reach the top a creationist could be already sitting there.:thumbsup:

I have no problem with that, except for the fact that a "creationist" generally refers to a fundamentalist Christian who believes the world was created in seven days approximately 10,000 years ago. Completely preposterous.

So may I suggest to the atheist/evolutionist to do research on the actual validity of your own 'belief' before making comments on how "ignorant" and "futile" the creationists argument is.

This is all im saying.

Again, the very thought that the earth was created in seven days approximately 10,000 years ago is preposterous. Also, as I said, I have no problem with the possibility of a higher power.

And it also does not mean you can flood schools with this belief, call it truth while dismantling any creationists perspectives or arguments when you yourself are defending a belief which was founded by a plagiarist and which gave birth to some of the most immoral theories on human control around today.

Science deals with what can be seen and observed. That's why you don't have intelligent design in science classes -- it can't be seen and observed. If there's no designer to be seen and observed, you can't really put it in a classroom. Evolution, on the other hand, CAN be seen and observed.

Like I said, you should respect religion.

To do not is ignorant.

When religions stop spreading falsehoods I'll start respecting them. Religion has a tendency to become just as immoral as as anything else.

[Fallen_Icarus]

No, I can't say that I have, though I do believe I know enough to say that it is quite plausible and much more plausible than...other things

Well may I suggest you do some reading into what you seem to 'believe' in, before you form any attacks on 'creationism'.

This would be fine, but the words 'intelligent design' actually refer to a very specific viewpoint put forth by fundamentalist Christians.

Not true, seemingly you have not purchased yet a dictionary so I will paste you the meanings of the words 'intelligent design'.

**Yawns**

it is a noun and its abbreviated form is ID. It means a theory that nature and complex biological structures were designed by intelligent beings ...
bloggerparty.com/newest_words_in_the_dictionary_for_2005

Intelligent design is an argument for the existence of God, based on the premise that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection

hmm, do you see the word 'christian' in any of those definitions?

I dont.

You percieve it to be related to christianity yet islamic people are also creationists, I again suggest you read the book 'science and Islam'.

I have no problem with that, except for the fact that a "creationist" generally refers to a fundamentalist Christian who believes the world was created in seven days approximately 10,000 years ago.

Well in the Quran it defines these days as each being many thousends of years.

Do your research, I cannot be bothered to teach you.

Science deals with what can be seen and observed. That's why you don't have intelligent design in science classes -- it can't be seen and observed.

Have you ever seen a man evolving from an ape?

When religions stop spreading falsehoods I'll start respecting them.

And you say this in defence of evolution which does nothing but what you have just described?

[TryptamineScape]

I had an article kicking around, unfortunately I seem to have misplaced it. Anyway, it dealt with exactly what you're talking about. It quoted documents from the 1930's where it was made clear that the American educational system was being revised to create a large mass of general labourers, easily manipulated and used to repetitive mind-dulling tasks, while shooting a select few rapidly to the positions of power. From what I remember, a lot of it is based on wealth - although it can carry over to simply being able to afford private schooling.

In any case, I'm of the opinion that we should teach scientific beliefs in schools, and religious beliefs in church. But that's me.

I completely agree with you. I always felt like I wasn't really learning anything in school as much as I was being bullshitted. I learned much more on my own than I did in high school. It was an obvious dogmatic exercise in obedience more than it was educational. I hate it, but there's nothing we can do from inside this forum. There seems to be alot of us that agree on the same things. How much power could we be coming together as one and proposing numerous new ideas to the same people over and over? Too bad no one is ever down with me on that.

[GraziLovesMary]

Ahhhhhh another religious debate. How wonderfully mundane and repetitious. One side is totally left-wingest, the other side is hard-core right-wingers and the minority in the middle tries to mediate.

wheeeeeeeee..... im having fun





:wtf:

[Hardcore Newbie]

Ahhhhhh another religious debate. How wonderfully mundane and repetitious. One side is totally left-wingest, the other side is hard-core right-wingers and the minority in the middle tries to mediate.

wheeeeeeeee..... im having fun





:wtf:

Sounds just like politics, eh?

[mfqr]

I do not recall saying this, infact I do not recall saying anything about where morality should or does come from.

All I said is there is a considerable question of morality about evolution, you could say to an evolutionist - "but what about morality?" If survival of the fittest has no morality one should kill one another to survive, is this moral? (the evolutionist MUST answer yes or he/she will be in contradiction).

It isn't a question about morality. Why do you bring morality into it? You can't disprove evolution by bringing up a point about "morality." Richard Dawkins, though, does argue that Altruism is actually something that every human shares to an extent. He says that it is a hunter-gatherer kind of evolution of consciousness, which is to help others in need. So yes, it can be argued that morality can be fit into evolution. I still don't know why you bring up the concept of morality in offense to Evolution theory. It confused me, so I made the assumption that you simply meant that Creationism supports the concept of morality... and a lot of Creationists use that argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I hope your reading my posts thoroughly and not just skimming the text! lol

Well, your posts get kind of long and boring, so I do end up skimming.

Im not saying that all evolutionists are evil (but there is a question of morality which must be placed to them, which often as dawkins experiences on a regular basis, cannot answer) I dont proclaim that evolutionists are vindictive people who are looking out for only themselves, often people cannot live happily knowing they have done harm to others, its called guilt and that is a form of punishment.

Oh, okay. Whatever.

There is good and evil in every school of thought, you will find corruption in religion aswel as in evolution you will also find good in each because good and evil lies within us all, this is the reason why it follows us into every doctrine of belief, system of governing or theory we create.

I see much more corruption in the realms of religion than in the realms of the theory of Evolution. Religion is a doctrine, and Evolution is a theory. Perhaps you mean that you see corruption in science as well? Of course there is. One example is the demonizing of cannabis, and false scientific reports on how "bad" it is.

I am just saying to the evolutionists whom castigate the terrible attrociousness of religion to firstly think of their own belief and what that has contributed in terms of evil beliefs and doctrines such as eugenics as one particular example im sure you are familiar with.

Well, I don't know much about Eugenics, so I can't say much about it. However, we both know that religion has been committing atrocities for thousands of years. Evolution has only been a theory for a fraction of that time. So considering the time, religion has committed many more atrocities.

I never once put forward this arguement, I have not once even said I believe or do not believe in God.

Misunderstanding.

I presume you are not directly debating with me and simply asking good questions.

Nope, it was just a misunderstanding.

Go on youtube.com and type in "Dr Zakir Naik" and then come back and let me know if its had any effect on your current opinion.

I will, but I guarantee it won't turn me to religion.

Well whats the atheists Bible?

The origin of species?

Whos their Jesus? their God? - Charles Darwin?

Do you see the paradox?

Thanks for that tasteless bit of sarcasm. Atheists have no Bible, and believe in no God. That's what Atheism is. Me, however... I am agnostic.

[mfqr]

I watched a bunch of videos of Dr. Zakir Naik. He's a smart man, but I'm not convinced. My opinion remains the same, sorry.