can you see spirits when stoned?

[bhouncy]

hallucination.

[bhouncy]

Well... i know a girl who see spirits even when sober (and i think she never smoked)... so, i think its very possible to see them stoned too.

How do you know it's spirits? How do you know spirits exist?

[psychocat]

I don't believe in spirits.
IMO what others claim to be spirits are more likely to be hallucinations or delusion.

[Coelho]

How do you know it's spirits? How do you know spirits exist?

Well... i dont know what she actually sees... she called tham spirits, and her description of it fits what people usually call "spirits", so i just repeated what ive heard from her...

And i cant answer anything about the existence of spirits without knowing exactly what you define by spirits. If you mean living entities without a physical body, then i strongly believe they exist, and even that there is at least one of them "inside" each one of us (what some people calls "our souls"). Yet, i cant prove they exist, so it is a matter of belief.

[bhouncy]

Well... i dont know what she actually sees... she called tham spirits, and her description of it fits what people usually call "spirits", so i just repeated what ive heard from her...

And i cant answer anything about the existence of spirits without knowing exactly what you define by spirits. If you mean living entities without a physical body, then i strongly believe they exist, and even that there is at least one of them "inside" each one of us (what some people calls "our souls"). Yet, i cant prove they exist, so it is a matter of belief.

Beliefs can be dangerous.

Beliefs are an idea of what reality is. Like an assumption. If I assume the road is clear and step out into traffic it is my assumption that has got me knocked down. My belief that I am safe.

The spiritualist church was set up by confessed fraudsters yet with all the money to be made the assumption that one can converse with the dead is kept alive.

Maybe since our brains are all similar in structure that we have similar hallucinations that some call 'spirits'.

[JD1stTimer]

Spirits don't need to exist in order to be seen. When I have smoked a certain herb I have encountered an entity the nature of which was that it both existed and couldn't possibly exist. And those were actually two of it's physical attributes. I don't believe it existed but I saw it. And it was a real thing, I don't believe it was a hallucination. I guess it could be described as a physical manifestation of a null void. That same substance made me smell smoke from the northwest once, and I was sure my house was going to catch fire, and within a week there were grass fires to the northwest which were threatening my town. So I think you see real things under that influence. BTW I don't use that any more because a lovecraftian presence touches my inner self and it gets stronger with increased use. So no more for me, ever.

[Coelho]

Beliefs can be dangerous.

Beliefs are an idea of what reality is. Like an assumption. If I assume the road is clear and step out into traffic it is my assumption that has got me knocked down. My belief that I am safe.

Well... anything people do is ultimately based on beliefs, or assumptions. Even the most rational, logical, skeptical and science-minded is acting upon assumptions: the assumption that the reason, the logic and the science are THE right way to understand the things. But its only an assumption. Logic is only a way to relate things assumed as true, but it cant justify itself.

Logic just says "if x is true and y is true then z also must be true", but the fact x or y are true are only assumptions. And even when they are derived from other assumptions, like "if a is true and b is true then x is true", there are this assumptions a and b which were assumed to be true. This process can be repeated as much one wants, but always there will be assumptions that are not justified, but only assumed to be true. So, all the statements derived from logic are also ultimately based upon beliefs, or assumptions, and it makes them no better than any other beliefs or assumptions, logical or not.

The spiritualist church was set up by confessed fraudsters yet with all the money to be made the assumption that one can converse with the dead is kept alive.

Well... i personaly dont believe that the "spirits" are the souls of the dead ones. I believe the dead ones cant return to this physical plane we live. But, i also believe that there are a lot of other non-physical live beings that exists and sometimes are percieved by people.

Maybe since our brains are all similar in structure that we have similar hallucinations that some call 'spirits'.

Well... if you accept the possibility of colletive hallucinations, how do you distinguish the "reality" from a collective hallucination? How can one know that we are actually percieving the world as it is, instead of having the same hallucination of everybody else?

[bhouncy]

Well... anything people do is ultimately based on beliefs, or assumptions. Even the most rational, logical, skeptical and science-minded is acting upon assumptions: the assumption that the reason, the logic and the science are THE right way to understand the things. But its only an assumption. Logic is only a way to relate things assumed as true, but it cant justify itself.

Logic just says "if x is true and y is true then z also must be true", but the fact x or y are true are only assumptions. And even when they are derived from other assumptions, like "if a is true and b is true then x is true", there are this assumptions a and b which were assumed to be true. This process can be repeated as much one wants, but always there will be assumptions that are not justified, but only assumed to be true. So, all the statements derived from logic are also ultimately based upon beliefs, or assumptions, and it makes them no better than any other beliefs or assumptions, logical or not.



Well... i personaly dont believe that the "spirits" are the souls of the dead ones. I believe the dead ones cant return to this physical plane we live. But, i also believe that there are a lot of other non-physical live beings that exists and sometimes are percieved by people.



Well... if you accept the possibility of colletive hallucinations, how do you distinguish the "reality" from a collective hallucination? How can one know that we are actually percieving the world as it is, instead of having the same hallucination of everybody else?

The thing about logic is it appears to work. In order to function in the world we agree that a car speeding along the road will break our bones if we step in front of it. <speeding car> + <unwitting pedestrian> = <bloody mess>

You can create an internal reality that makes spirits function but that doesn't mean it will function in the outer reality. Thinking in a system other than logic might change the outer world but at this moment in time if you want to get from A to B you have to do it in the logical reality world.

I don't accept collective hallucinations. I accept that the brain structure coupled with experience may have similarities just like cutting the skin makes us bleed.

[Coelho]

The thing about logic is it appears to work. In order to function in the world we agree that a car speeding along the road will break our bones if we step in front of it. <speeding car> + <unwitting pedestrian> = <bloody mess>

You can create an internal reality that makes spirits function but that doesn't mean it will function in the outer reality. Thinking in a system other than logic might change the outer world but at this moment in time if you want to get from A to B you have to do it in the logical reality world.

I dont meant that logic itself doesnt work. Of course it works, i cant deny this. The problem is the assumptions that are made before applying the logic.

The usual assumption of the nowadays science is that what we usually percieve with our 5 senses is everything that there is to percieve. Its not a conclusion deduced by logic, but just an assumption that is assumed to be true without further questionings. Its even assumed to be an "obvious" thing. Based on this assumption, science builds a beautiful castle of conclusions logically derived from it. But the logic only ensures that this conclusions are valid IF the initial assumptions were valid.

Yet the part of the human knowledge that deals with "spirits" and such assumes that what usually percieve with our 5 senses isnt everything that there is to percieve, but only a very small part of it. And based upon this assumption it builds, also by the use of the logic, its set of conclusions, that are of course different of the ones deduced by the todays science assumptions.

So, the explanations this two different systems of thought give to the same phenomena are of course different, and the logic itself cant be used to decide which is "right" and which is "wrong", because the difference isnt that one system uses logic and the another doesnt, but in the initial assumptions made before applying the logic.

The science says that people who sees spirits are hallucinating. The "occult" says that people who doesnt see spirits are somehow "blind". And each one seems right from its own viewpoint. So how to decide? The decision is a matter of belief, which set of assumptions one assumes (believes) its true.

I don't accept collective hallucinations. I accept that the brain structure coupled with experience may have similarities just like cutting the skin makes us bleed.

Or one can also assume that people have similar experiences because they are actually "real" somehow...

[LOC NAR on probation]

The largest religion on earth and no one wants to fess up to is superstition. It infest all time, all demensions and all galaxies. It's every where and dates back to the beginning of man. even the POPE is superstitous or he would not have an armoured pope car. Look deep around you, even the smartest most reasonable of us use it and believe in it.

There are laws to the universe and no I don't claim to know them all.

The first and maybe most important to this case is.

You can not destroy matter or energy. Only transform it if you will. Our dead bodies don't just disappear, we go back to the very building blocks of life we came from. Pure elements of the Earth.

Now our Souls as you will are pure electric energy and where does that go ? You can not destroy it. I think in most cases we merge with the cosmic energy to become one or the light if you believe in such.

On the other hand no one can prove that our energy can not stay a singularity. That would explain spirits.

I have studied many religions and I don't subscribe to just one, I take from all. Logic helps me understand that reality is only a complete matrix. If you believe then it is so. This explains people we think are crazy or nuts or imbalanced. But are they ? It is not for us to say.

So my story. I smoke to open my mind and become more sensitive to my surroundings and now to help in turning old. A year before my heart attack when I smoked I could see death in peoples faces. It is hard to explain almost burned into their foreheads. In all about 12 of them I came across. Only one heeded my sight and went to the doctors. He is still alive. The rest died that year at about the time I thought. My wife thinks I'm crazy now and treats me kind of weird. Like a death see'er. Well I too had a heart attack and thought I was going to die. They put stinths in my chest to open veins and I am doing well now. I can not see death any more but I see things that can not be explained or seen by most. I feel things and event that are about to happen. No long term foresight but things that are about to happen. If only I could see this weeks loto numbers but alas no.

Do not feel alone because you are not, nor will you ever be.

My days are now filled with joy in knowing that family and friends are waiting. Death will come to me as a long lost friend, most welcome and no fear.

Well got to go wife is trying to read this and giving me that wierd look again. Am I crazy ? Maybe but I go without hesitation.