Quote Originally Posted by Torog
I see going into Iraq,as being good strategically,because we needed to topple saddam and sons and git closer to Iran and Syria and the Straits of Hormuz and other vital oil facilities.
can't say i exactly agree with you on that, at least on the timing. though it's true that saddam had to be taken care of at some point, by taking on both afghanistan and iraq at the same time we created a power void that iran has stepped into quite readily. the history of tension between iraq and iran might have kept them both in check long enough for the situation in afghanistan to stabilize and allow saddam to be dealt with at a later date. instead we have thrown the whole region into turmoil and and given the appearance of having declared war on the entire muslim world. we were rash when we should have been patient and we have given our enemies even more ammunition in a propaganda war that recruits more and more martyrs every day.

Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey
Personally, while the examples of liberal dishonesty are for the most part accurate, I don't believe conservatives are any less prone to dishonesty....
.... leftists of today do not, for the most part, represent the philosophy of Classical Liberalism (a philosophy I agree with more than others). Most conservatives don't seem to understand this, and label "liberal" a dirty word in and of itself.
But then, most conservatives today don't represent classical conservatism. It's a shame how few people today understand the original ideology they claim to represent.
both liberals and conservatives have been betrayed by the political animals that have turned our electoral process into cheap theatrics. it wasn't so long ago that there seemed to be almost no difference between our two political parties. in an attempt to differentiate the two, they have both created machines at the extreme ends of the spectrum and lost track of the will of the people. though their totalitarian aims are still similar, everything is now cloaked in extremist rhetoric and the fanatics have taken control of every facet of the process.

the people don't want a socialist state and they don't want a warrior nation, but you'd never know it by the tripe that is spit out by the politicians and greedily regurgitated by the media. we have become a caricature of our original intent and we seemed to be trapped by our own desire for the sensational. it's no wonder the public laps up celebrity gossip and buys into the pablum that passes for news.