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  1.     
    #1
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    Ms Stinky has shamed me.

    Back when she first hung the ??complete noobs guide to growing?, we talked about doing a ?? noob's guide to grow-room set-up?. I never got around to it- then I saw her ?? garden type examples thread?, and it guilted me into getting my ass in gear.

    So here we have ( at ) it- the ?? Komplete Noob's guide to setting up your first growroom.?
    I'm gonna start with some meta stuff- questions to ask yourself before you even start. After that, ( I think) I'll try to cover reflective materials, ventilation setup/ odor control, hanging and alignment of lights, and whatever else comes up as we go. We'll see.:wtf:

    Let's start with the ultimate meta-question-

    What is your goal for this project?
    (I'm specifically not going to talk about grows of over 1200 watts in a single space- I think that's a reasonable cut-off between personal use and small-commercial gardens. Most folks who are burning more than two 600's in flower are producing enough over headstash to be .be producing a small income stream, and the crazed Maoist in me wants to let them figure it out for themselves. For folks who are leaning that way- be advised that ventilation, in particular, does not always scale up linearly.)

    Are you hoping to grow to cover your own smoking? How much do you smoke a month? (Keep in mind that you are automatically supplying everybody else in your household that smokes.) How much does your household smoke in a month?

    If it's just you and maybe a spouse/partner, and you only smoke a few times a week, you could get away with a 250w hps, in a 2x2 or 2x3 foot space. I know that people work in smaller spaces, but it's never struck me as a good place to start- and most of the folks I've known who were under CFLs wished that they had the HPS 250. T-5 florescents are another good choice- esp. if there are ventilation issues.

    Daily smoker? Husband/wife/roommate of a daily smoker? You'll want at least a 400w HPS for flower, and a 600 if you share a lot.

    Multi-Smokestack household? A 600HPS will probabley keep up, but three Marley-types will want to go to 1 k. If you see yourself scaling up to small commercial, go for the 600- they scale up nicer, IMHO.


    How serious do you think you're going to get?
    Are you the kind of person who gets caught up in hobbies, or do you pick things up and put them down as the mood strikes? If you are- move up one light size. (ie, from 250 to 400, or from 1K to two 600's). Have a look at Rock.Steady's guide to see what I mean. ()

    What's your budget? ( Throughout this I'm going to point toward what I feel is best practical practise, though I'll try to sketch out both minimal and best possible as I go along. I'm sure a LOT of folks are going to disagree with me about best practical approach- feel free to comment. Do me a favor, though- quote the part that you're disagreeing with, so we don't have to be scrolling up and down as much in the inevitable pie-fights.)

    Anyway, if you're thinking about setting up, you should have a space in mind. Picking a space is a very important decision- I'd plan it out through harvest and drying before I so much as cracked a seed.

    Really, the ideal space for a personal grow is a 4x4 to6x8 basement closet with a solid, lockable door and a window, with an exterior wall that's far away from any trafficked areas. Life, unfortuneatly, is rarely ideal. There are quite a few factors that make for a good growing space- so as you think about a spot, I'm going to ask you to answer a few questions, we'll assign scores to different answers, and try to come up with a formula for choosing a ??room? to grow in.

    The best way that I can think of to do this is a 1-5 scale, with 1 being the low or minimal end, and 5 being the best you can think of. We'll end up assigning each question a multiplier value so that we can rate the relative importance of each factor. In example, the conveniance of not having to carry water too far is important, but NOWHERE NEAR as important as discretion/security. I'd much rather carry water than handcuffs. I'm also going to define some of the questions as we go.

    A.) Is the space the right size?( 1-5)
    I'd say the minimum size for a 250 is 2x2, for a 400 3x4, for a 600 4x4, and for a K 5x5.
    I'd also say that the maximums are 3x3, 4x5, 6x6, and 8x8 repectively. 4-6X8 is a nice configuration for two 600's. (I'm sure that we'll get a bunch of opinions about this.) If it's too big, will you be able to cut it up?


    B.) Will you be able to provide enough fresh air? (1-5)
    How accessible is ventilation? Is there a window? Attic hatch? If you're thinking small box, will one side be against a wall, allowing you to cut ventilation holes?

    C.) Is the space private? (1-5)
    Is there any reason for anybody else to need to access the space with no or little notification? Do you rent? Do you have tenants? Are there circuit breakers or plumbing shutoffs in the space? Water heaters? Does the space have a ??wet wall??

    D.) Is the space discreet? (1-5)
    Is it close to your front door? Have windows facing the street? Would the mailman/ oil delivery guy/ pizza guy ever notice anything?

    E.) Is there adequate power? (1-5)
    Will you be able to run your choice of lamp, plus another 50% to cover fans, pumps,etc?
    You can't run more than a K safely on a 15 amp circuit- Well, yeah, two 600's, but you won't have room for as much as a clock-radio by the time you're done.

    F.)How far do you have to carry water?
    ( in-room water would be a 5, up two flights of stairs a 1)

    G.) Is the space stable in terms of temperature? (1-5)
    Are you going to bake in the summer, or freeze in the winter? Attic temps bounce around a lot, from way-too-hot to freakin freezing, depending on insulation. Basements tend to run nice and cool year-round. Living spaces are usually in the 65-75 range, and are OK- but I don't run central air, so my second floor bedrooms would probabley be too hot in the summer. Yours might or might not.

    H.) Is the space available? (1-5)
    Are you thinking about taking over the space where your wife keeps her knitting? Her ski's? Her chainsaw? Is this where your roommate keeps his comic book collection? Action figures? ( Growing in a group house is an exercise in politics that would make Kissinger sweat)

    Now let's talk multipliers...

    I'm going to assign some ?? importance? multipliers, and I'll try to explain my reasoning. Feel free to offer your opinions/solutions- but again, please quote the passage that your critiquing, so my scrolling finger doesn't cramp.


    A) appropriate size- On a 1-10 scale of importance, I'd say this is a 7- not critical, but important. It's important that you can make it size well- a 4x4 area of an 8x10 bedroom will work great for a 400, if you can partition it off so that you're not wasting light.
    So a perfect size (5)would get you 35 points (5x7)

    B.) ventilation- I'm going to say another 7. You can get around vent issues by upsizing fans, building lung rooms, etc- but thinking thru your ventilation is key! Great access would give you a 5, so you'd get 35 points ( 5x7).

    C.) privacy- big ol' 10. (Do I have to explain why?)

    D.)discretion- not as important as privacy- you can hide things in plain sight. Still, if I have a vent sticking thru the wall, I don't want it to be right by the front door. Let's call it an 8.

    E.) Adequate power- HID lights suck a good bit of juice, and overloaded wiring can cause fires- which will get you clipped at best, or kill someone at worst. However, inadequate wiring isn't that bad to remedy. Try to avoid extension cords, and if you have to use them- buy, brand new, the heaviest extension you can find, in the correct length for your application. Extensions are expensive, but much less so then lawyers. ( No cords on the floor!). As this is fairly manageable, I'm going to give it a 5.

    F.) Distance to water- is really a conveniance thing. Lugging H20's a drag, but not a deal- breaker. Call it a 3.

    G.) Temp Stability- can make or break a grow. Again, it can be managed, but can be a real PITA- and even worse to try to retrofit a running room. Let's call it a 6.

    H.) Availability- you really don't want to step on anybody's toes. No matter what, the grow will eventually cause friction with anybody else who lives in the space. On the other hand, if nobody's an asshole, you should be able to make it work- but if push comes to shove, you'll get shoved. Try not to push. Let's give it a 4.

    Ok, so take your ??score? for each question and multiply by the appropriate ?? importance? factor to get the weighted value of your answer. Then sum up the weighted values to get your spaces grade as a potential grow space.

    The perfect space would score a 250. The worst space on earth would score a 50.

    I'd give a score of 210 to 250 an ??A?
    170 to 209 a ??B?
    130 to 169 a ??C?.

    I would'nt even think about working in a space that didn't score at least a ??C?- that's just asking for trouble. Y'all can if ya want to, but don't say that nobody warned you...


    Room Prep- First things first. Go in there and shut the door. Turn any lights off. Wait five minutes... Can you see anything? At all? Any light anywhere?

    If you're going to line the room in Panda, it'll take care of a lot of light leaks. If you're using mylar or white paint, you're going to want to fix the light leaks before you paint/hang- mylar in particular will let a lot of light thru.

    Pros&Cons

    Mylar Pros highly reflective
    easy to hang

    does not wear well
    Cons makes noise in fans
    electrically conductive



    Panda Pros very reflective
    10' wide
    durable and cheap

    Cons may be hard to source
    10'wide
    hard to hang alone




    White Paint Pro cheap
    easy to apply
    easy to repaint

    cannot clean
    Con messy to apply
    must dry before plants go in

    An easy way to light proof a door is to hang a length of panda over the door opening, with a self-adhesive zipper to close it up. Windows can be covered w/ panda or luan- I usually hang a mini-blind between the glass and the covering as camoflage. If you're going to vent thru this window, remember to leave it open a few inches before you cover it!



    OT- this is all I'm good for tonight. I'm going to hang a couple of placeholder replies under this, so that I can edit in further narrative in a linear fashion.

    I'd love to get people's feedback on this project.
    rhizome Reviewed by rhizome on . Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress Ms Stinky has shamed me. :( Back when she first hung the ??complete noobs guide to growing?, we talked about doing a ?? noob's guide to grow-room set-up?. I never got around to it- then I saw her ?? garden type examples thread?, and it guilted me into getting my ass in gear. So here we have ( at ) it- the ?? Komplete Noob's guide to setting up your first growroom.? I'm gonna start with some meta stuff- questions to ask yourself before you even start. After that, ( I think) Rating: 5
    I assume you understand that we have options on your time,
    And we will ditch you in the harbour if we must-
    But if it all works out nicely,
    You\'ll get the bonus you deserve
    From doctors we trust.

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  3.     
    #2
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    Very good post. i like the points rating questionaire.

  4.     
    #3
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    This is going to be one of the best threads that canncom has ever seen, PERIOD.
    If I may be so bold as the write the blurb on the back of the book, lol, Rhizome comes equipped with a background in horticulture and many years' experience applying it to commercial-scale hydroponic food crop production.
    Sticky for you!!!
    Rhizome, your edit window is only a few minutes so anything you need moved around may be a tough one- even mods can't change the order of posts.
    I've been doing mine by writing it up in a word processing program and then pasting it.
    Thanks for this effort!!!

  5.     
    #4
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    If I may add a few things here.....they are probably pointless thoughts but I can't help but throw them in. With the few people I've worked with these things seem to be what people have 1. the most trouble understanding. 2. Not realizing the importance of such things as ventilation, temp control, humidity etc.....until they have the problem which, interestingly, they wouldn't have if they had realized it was VERY important at the beginning. Lighting, room temps and good ventilation are the big three imo.

    I see this thread as being for those who REALLY want to approach growing right but oddly, lots of people don't seem to want to....they want the easiest, cheapest way to go....until they find it doesn't produce the same results as the RIGHT way to do it and then there's all sorts of fussing, complaining and moaning about the price, the time and the energy.

    So....new growers....pay VERY careful attention to this thread.....it is EXCELLENT. And when Rhizome (quietly) says something important (example.....room temps can make or break your grow ) USE that information or then he'll have to have a thread titled "How to Make the Typical Cheap, Easy Noob Growroom Into Something That Will Actually Grow Plants."

    Great work Rhiz..... you're such a sly devil. :thumbsup:

  6.     
    #5
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    As always rhizome delivers in pure analytical fashion.
    You sure your not a vulcan?

    My favorite is the verbage used.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhizome
    three marley types will want a 1k.

    So far my favorite.

    The quiz is a excellent way to categorize spaces, budgets, and of course the key questions of what, how much , and where. Since its still early on this I am assuming there is lots more to come. Seems that might thread should maybe be in Basic Growing Growroom Setup

    /subscribe

  7.     
    #6
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    OK- let's talk ventilation. The most important points here, IMHO-

    -Nature abhors a vacuum- even a relative one ( or... pressures will tend to equalize)
    -You're not moving air in, and you're not moving air out. You're moving air THROUGH.
    -Questionable odors are probabley the #2 or #3 reason that folks get caught- ( Talking out of school would be #1).

    The ventilation system is one of the most critical aspects of growroom design. I'm going to shy away from discussion of AC use for now- most personal gardens can get by without, and those that can't will generally be served by the climate control system of the dwelling. For now, we'll assume that that primary cooling/ dehumidification is going to be through exhaust.

    The ventilation system, at it's simplest, consists of three elements- the intake, the exhaust, and the blower/fan. Choices here are about equivalently important. Let's start with fan sizing, which is tied to room size (in cubic feet) and choice of lamp.

    For now, I'm going to assume that people are using a single main exhaust blower and a passive ( unpowered) intake. (Active intakes can be very effective, but great care must be taken to insure that intake CFM does not exceed exhaust CFM. In this case, you'll achieve a positive pressure condition in the growroom. This excess pressure WILL disperse in an uncontrollable manner, bringing with it delectable but dangerous aromas.( See above primary principles.) I would advise always trying to run at as close to nominal pressure as possible, with any variation from nominal being negative.)

    Calculating cubic footage is simple- length x width x height = cubic volume. You want a main exhaust fan which can exchange the air in your room in no more than five minutes. I try to budget for three minutes. Let's comprimise at four minutes. Therefore, a 5x5 room with 8' ceilings would require a fan capable of [ 5(l) x 5(w) x 8(h)] = 200 cf. 200 cf / 4 (minutes)= 50 CFM for your fan. Doesn't sound like much, huh?

    Now let's get into efficiency factor multipliers. ( This is where it all goes to hell).



    Take your unloaded CFM requirement, and add 10 % for each foot of flexible ductwork that you are exhausting thru.( ie- you need to clear a 4x4x6 room thru 10' of ductwork. That's {96 CF /4 (minutes)}= 24 CFM + {(10'x10%)=100%} 24 CFM+100% (of 24 CFM)= 48 CFM. ( Exhaust loaded CFM)

    Now take your (E.L.)CFM and multiply it by 1.5 for each 90 degree bend in your exhaust ductwork, cumulitively. ( Ie- you have a loaded CFM of 48 cfm that makes two 90' bends in it's ten foot length. That would be (48 x 1.5)x1.5- or 108 cfm loaded w/ bend factor.)

    OK- CFM requirements are adding up pretty quick, and we haven't even talked about odor control. I personally think that carbon filters are the best method of odor control- but I figure that we'll get a healthy debate about this too. I like to put my carbon filter inside the room, near the ceiling. I like to set up the filter before the fan, so that air is sucked from the space, through the filter, through the fan, and then out of the space. This way, all air being pressurized by the fan has already been de-odorized. You can blow through the filter if you mount it after the fan, but be aware that between the fan and the filter there will be a zone of pressurized, stinky air- any leaks in your ductwork moving air from fan to filter will create potential smell issues. ( See primary principles above.)

    Take your EL CFM ( including bend factor) and multiply by 1.3 to allow for intake restriction of the carbon filter. Don't forget to allow for ductwork between filter and fan!

    So, if we're running a filter that's 3' away from the fan- our total duct length ( in the above example) is now 13'. Let's adjust our math.

    We have a 4x4x6 room. Our total duct length is 13'. We're using a filter. Our math now looks like-

    4x4x6 room= 96 CF. Divided by 4 minutes is 24 CFM required.
    24 CFM + 130% ( 10%x13')= 55.2 CFM ( I'm gonna round to whole CFM, to try to minimize decimal over-runs)

    (55CFMx1.5)x1.5= 124 CFM ?? to allow for our two 90 degree bends.

    124 CFMx1.3 ( to allow for air velocity lost to the filter) = 161 CFM.

    So we're looking at a 161 CFM fan.

    But wait- we haven't even thought about how our light's going to effect this. We could go off into a discussion of determining system effeciency by measuring intake and exhaust temperatures so that we could calc differential temperatures, but I don't know how to make the little ?? delta? symbol on my laptop keyboard, so I'm gonna skip that and assign yet another load factor...

    For a 250HPS- multiply by .75
    For a 400- multiply by 1
    For a 600, multiply by 1.3
    For a K, multiply by 1.6.

    (Let's be reasonable here- I know that my math falls apart if you're running a K in a 4x4x6 space ?? but is it reasonable to run a K in that space at all? In your very first room?)

    So to put a 600 in that room, we'll take our base adjusted CFM and multiply by 1.3 .
    161 CFM x 1.3 (lamp factor)= 209 CFM fan/blower to power the ventilation system.

    I'm not going to blow out the math to establish what room intake sizes should be to prevent drag on the system- that get's WAY crazy... Instead, I'm going to propose that we use a rule of thumb stating that ?? Intake area should be fan CFM x .5 square inches?

    Applying this rule, our 209 CFM fan would require an intake area of about 100 sq. inches- or 10? x10?. This does'nt have to be monolithic- two 50 sq? intakes will work as well as one 100 sq ?? intake. You can check your intake sizing by just cracking open the door to the room and firing the fan- if the door moves at all, you need more intake.

    When shopping for fans, round up- if you need a 209, and your choices are 180 or 240, grab the 240.

    OK- gonna break here again and see where folks have pointed out my mistakes.
    I assume you understand that we have options on your time,
    And we will ditch you in the harbour if we must-
    But if it all works out nicely,
    You\'ll get the bonus you deserve
    From doctors we trust.

  8.     
    #7
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenGoblin
    As always rhizome delivers in pure analytical fashion.
    You sure your not a vulcan?
    I could totally buy this myself Goblin. :thumbsup:

  9.     
    #8
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    Vulcan? No.

    Irish Catholic. ( We know how to wait.)
    I assume you understand that we have options on your time,
    And we will ditch you in the harbour if we must-
    But if it all works out nicely,
    You\'ll get the bonus you deserve
    From doctors we trust.

  10.     
    #9
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    Well I won't go hunting with you anyway because of your avatar.

  11.     
    #10
    Senior Member

    Noob's guide to growroom set-up : a work in progress

    very good on the Chapter the Second- Sizing your exhaust and intakes section
    very informative

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