Quote Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
The Founding Fathers of American Intelligence
by P.K. Rose


George Washington was theobvious choice for acquisition of foreign intelligence. The Father of our Country was an adroit spymaster. Over the course of his long military career, he directed numerous agent networks, provided comprehensive guidance in intelligence tradecraft to his agents, and used their intelligence effectively when planning and conducting military operations.


John Jay--who later became Chief Justice of the United States--is consideredthe FoundingFather of American counterintelligence. Jay is seldom cited for his achievements in this arena; his historical reputation stems largely from his political and judicial accomplishments. But he clearly deserved to be considered the first national-level American counterintelligence chief.


Benjamin Franklin was the American icon after whom the remaining room was named. His efforts in what is known today as covert action were wide-ranging and usually successful. During the Revolutionary War period, Franklin engaged in propaganda operations and agent-of-influence activities and directed paramilitary operations against British property.
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...nce/art-1.html

Many, many more articles, etc...on spying during the Revolutionary War on our "citizens".
I'm more concerned about the constitution and bill of rights than the actions of individuals. Franklin, Washington, Jay, these aren't infallable gods. George Washington was also a slave owner, but we don't condone slavery on that premise.

And I also agree that spying, even domestic spying, is at times necessary. But there's a reason the judicial system requires warrants for these things, and they should not IMO be done away with. If there's legitimate reason to spy, get the warrant, otherwise you're opening the door to every home.


Are you making an international call to a man called Afshine in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan? If not, don't worry about the wire taps. If so, Why???
Oh, the government tells us they'll only spy on those calls, so I guess it's true. I don't care what criteria they claim is used for spying, when you eliminate warrant-requirements you're giving the government power that can be easily abused. Even if this administration (in the NSA, CIA, whatever) is honest, the legal standards have been set to allow abuse of the people in the future. These limitations were put in place for a reason!

And for Christ sake, I thought the biggest aspect of traditional conservative philosophy is to keep big brother out of the individual's business. Now they're telling us that, all in the name of "protecting our freedom", the government's ability to spy is based on trust in their honesty rather than real legal restrictions? Patriot act has demolished some of the people's most important safeguards.

Club Gitmo.....since when did non-citizens obtain the same rights as us? To bad that the enemy doesn't abide by the same rules.
They don't have the same rights as American citizens, but they do have rights under the Geoneva (sp?) Convention and international law. But I'll even do away with the Geoneva convention for illegal combatants, and still there are basic human rights they should have to abide to. I don't really care what the enemy does or what laws they break, the soldiers we captured aren't he ones personally instituting these policies. It's kinda like saying "you killed my kids, so I have a right to kill your kids". Any sensible person knows you hold the individual accountable, not the soldiers working for that individual.
Besides, a lot of the tortures I saw had no interrogation value, just asshole guards with a big grin on their face getting their rocks off torturing the enemy. Petty revenge is not justification for anything, we need a system that actually looks at the results of their actions, not those who think in childish terms of "I'm gonna torture them 'cause they deserve it!".

And, finally, the issue I was bringing up about arresting without warrant is more about giving the government despotic powers over its citizens that we should not allow them to have based on trust. I've already heard a few cases of men who were arrested and held without charge for months, sometimes years, then released after they decided on their innocence. Those men did not deserve long-term imprisonment with no access to legal council, informing their family of their whereabouts, and a loss of individual rights before they are even found to be guilty. Once again, the patriot act has alloted powers to the government that allow them to arbitrarily imprison and abuse its own citizens. It would be remarkably naive to believe such powers wouldn't be abused more and more as time goes on.

Ahhh, Irans revolutionary gaurd.....the same that trains people such as Hezbollah and insurgents in Iraq. They ARE a terrorist group in not only our eyes but other nations in the world.
I agree they are a terrorist group carrying out terrorist actions in Iraq. However, if America goes to war with Iran, it is not acceptable to declare government-sanctioned legal combatants "terrorists" and thereby do away with the Geoneva convention.
And like I said, the Bush administration has set a precedent giving the US power to do away with any legal military obligation simply by declaring the enemy a terrorist.



Sorry my friend....I believe that it is you with the sleep in your eyes.
Nope, that's just bloodshot eyes from that bowl I smoked

Have a good one!:s4:
And you too! I know I vehemently disagree with you on some political issues, but I'll say you're a worthy opponent a cut above the rest of this rabble. Boy I grow tired of teenagers arguing with posts like "Fuck Bush! He's a Nazi!" lol.

Respect to ya man:thumbsup:
Gandalf_The_Grey Reviewed by Gandalf_The_Grey on . Troop Reduction Is Possible, Bush Says AL ASAD AIR BASE, Iraq, Sept. 3 â?? President Bush made a surprise eight-hour visit to Iraq on Monday, emphasizing security gains, sectarian reconciliation and the possibility of a troop withdrawal, thus embracing and pre-empting this monthâ??s crucial Congressional hearings on his Iraq strategy. His visit, with his commanders and senior Iraqi officials, had a clear political goal: to try to head off opponentsâ?? pressure for a withdrawal by hailing what he called recent successes in Iraq Rating: 5