NatureisAwesome I don't have time to read your last retort but I just watned to add have you ever considered that the dissipative structures which organisms adopt in order to harness energy from somewhere might in fact trascend 4 dimensional space and time? Its all based on topology and strange attractors. I dunno I think we are probably both arguing the same toss of the coin. Are you aware also that Capra, someone you seem to also dismiss readilly, has written a paper on the parallels between science and christianity? (I've not read it though)