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08-27-2007, 07:38 PM #11
Senior Member
A path to faith with science
I think you are having a problem grasping the concept of possible vs actual.
Anything is possible. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
I can think anything I want, I can even believe specific things. It still doesnt mean that I am real, that my existance is a fact. Everything I think, everything I feel could possibly be constructed by someones dream, with the illusion of freewill.
And I have never once stated that I know for a fact anything at all. In fact, I think I have said the exact opposite in multiple occasions. I have beliefs that most things are how they seem, but I know that it is ignorant to assume that anything we know is actually truth and fact.
I recognize the possibility that I am real. Just as much as I recognize the possibility that I am not real. Those possibilities dont have to rely on fact, unless you have undeniable proof that one or the other is true, in which case the other one would have to be false. But there is no definitive proof, there can never be with the dreamer theory. Its why its not brought up in most discussions, because its like Hitlering an arguement, it stops it dead in most situations.
Look at it this way.. Me thinking about thinking about me thinking could all have been part of this persons dream. The dreamer can create anything he/she/it wants, in any way, and it would be possible, because it is a dream. And I cant prove it, and you cant prove it. And since it cant be disproven, you cant state for a fact that its not possible. The dreamer theory covers all of this, alot better then your two websites and flawed logic in some departments can, or myself, I recommend looking into it. Ill find the "official" name of it tonight.
What evidence do you have to show that it isnt possible? Once again, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. AWhat evidence to you have to show that may be possible? You don't have any. How do you know what is possible or not? What we know as possible is dictated by what we observe in the outside world. Don't call your imagination a fact.
And I never called my imagination a fact. The only person who has a problem with calling things facts that arent in this conversation, is you. I purposely avoid using that word, because to do so is incorrect, and tends to diminish the meaning of the word the more its misused.
Also, are you stating that total knowledge, and everything that happens around us is limited by human knowledge and understanding? That it cant be happening if we dont know it, and see it? Human observation is severely flawed. You can be tricked many different ways while you use your observation. Hell, its one of the first things you learn in an entry level philosophy class. A person who relies on their observation to determine the truth or fact of something, is someone who is relying on a flawed system, and a someone who will not be able to provide solid proof of anything.
I cant. Thats why I didnt say it was a fact. But, current evidence leans towards that conclusion. So, currently, with the evidence we have available, its very very likely that we do actually exist. And thats about as far as it could ever get with that, if you include the dreamers theory. There would be no known way as of now to determine if that was the case, without something or someone from outside the dream exposing it to us.How do you know it's very likely that we exist if it supposedly can't be verified? How do you determine value? How do you know it's more likely without taking into equation the empirical evidence. So it's really only part empirical evidence, and part imagination.
Oh, and just to clarify, since there seems to be misunderstandings with what I post, none of this is a fact, or a truth, and I am not stating it as such. It is my interpretation of what has been laid available for us in the history that we know.
Flawed how? Im not arguing, he is flawed in many many ways, as any person would be. But what specifically are you referring to when you say this?Don't compare me with Descartes. I'm arguing, not him. And he's flawed in that logic and I don't agree with it.
Anything is a possibility, in the dreamers theory.Once again you contradict yourself. How do you know that the matrix is a possibility? You use your mind and the outside world which you say cannot be validated to help conclude (the other part being your total imagination) something you believe is validated. That is, the possibility for such and such. It's not valid. So you use your mind to build a conclusion and you deny your mind. Go with the evidence you do have. You can never deny your mind.
Seriously, how many damn times do I have to say it, and how many different ways, before you grasp the simple concept of it?
Yes, I use my mind to do everything you mentioned there, just as I stated before when you brought up the EXACT SAME ARGUEMENT. That doesnt mean that everything I have just done wasnt dreamed up by some unknown entity as a part of their dream. They right now, could be dreaming that I am typing this up about them dreaming about me typing this up, at this very moment, in which case none of this would be real, none of it would be fact, it would be a dream.
Did you seriously just bring in "reality" to the table? Jesus...There's a good chance you just did it. that is, used your "unverifiable" mind to try to think of a "verifiable" refutation. You cannot escape your mind. You cannot escape reality.
Reality is easily one of the MOST argued states in philosophy. How do you prove reality? How do you prove what you experience as reality is the same as someone else? How do you disprove it?
Exactly.
Reality is a joke if you are trying to bring this up in regards to truth and fact. AFAIK, no way has been found to determine and state THE reality, which in theory all would live in, and then through their perceptions, view. Its been a yr or so since I stayed up on that stuff, Ive been a lazy researcher, I know... but at that point, and back to the early dawn of man(creation, whatever, dont want to argue this point), it has been a philosophical question that has not been answered yet.
Anyways, Im sure it was just a slip on your part, or something similarly innocent, so no worries, but Id recommend refraining from bringing in the idea of "reality" into debates such as this, or any really. If you are talking with someone who has even the slightest background into Philosophy, you are fucked.
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