wtf happened before the big bang?

[420ultimatesmokage]

i'm not going to spend my time replying to all your shit. it does me no good because i can tell you already have your mind made up. im not going to debate evolution with you guys anymore, you'll have to find someone else. all it does is get me pissed off and thats not what i came here for. so believe what you want to believe.

peace.

p.s king im happy to elaborate, i love teaching people new stuff

[MadSativa]

Id still like to here all your thoughts on the subjects however come with an open mind as soon as name calling and spittin is thrown I will fire back. I have no shame in taking and throwing punches and accept all actions of disiplin; as before any of thiis began I had anticipted his behavoir from the attitude. Better just me in trouble than more others. So please keep the discusion going.imp:imp:imp:

[king of the world]

is the universe infinite?

[420ultimatesmokage]

that depends on the density of the universe. there are three possible outcomes which depend on the value of omega (basically the density) being less then one, equal to one, or greater than one.

1.in a high density universe omega is greater than one. gravity would cause spacetime to curve back in on itself. this is called a closed universe, it has a finite size but no boundary. one interesting property of a closed universe is that if you go in one direction long enough you'll end up back where you started

2. in a universe where omega equals 1 is the critical universe. if you looked at space at a large scale it would be flat like euclidean geometry. this universe is infinite in extent.

3. if omega is less than one, this universe would have negative curvature. somewhat like a saddle. this universe is also infinite in extent and is called an open universe.

the problem is dark matter. some galaxies contain ten times more dark matter than luminous material. the large scale distribution of dark matter is not yet know because it only reacts gravitationally so we can only infer its presence by the way it effects material we can see. from what we can tell omega is equal to one meaning its most likely flat.

Image:End of universe.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[natureisawesome]

I have to get going, but if the universe was infinite, the big bang couldn't have happened. Infinity by nature cannot fit inside any disclosed space. it's infinite.

[snowblind]

nature is awesome

quote
this isn't reasonable. This is fantasy land. By the way, much of our so
called evolutionary adapatations are based upon the premise that the
creature evolving had a desire to survive and experience pleasure so on
so as to motivate it to survive and evolve. You know, survival of the
fittest ( Which is true, just not as part of an evolutionary framework).
But this requires a consciousness.

firstly how is evolving a consiousness fantasy land. infact it is anything but. i dont talk about a consciounse (my spelling is crap) in the differentiation between good and bad. i talk about self realisation and communication with yourself and with others. it is more fanaticale to think the first humans thought

"wow here i am cave man, what shall i do today?"

the ideas of logic, reason, complex thought trains, contemplation these evolved. through interataction and time. they didnt just appear in our brains, we had to create the right nurological framework and connections to alllow our brain to function that way.

it is unlikely that all these functions where there in the begging and we were yet to discover them. infact this is highly unlikely, as when the brain doesn't reinforce pathways in the brain in closes them down, sometimes forever. which is why it is important to stimulate children, as it has been shown that when certain pathways are not exercised in development, they can be lost forever. such is the case of speech in ferel or neglected children.

the consousness is self realisation and realisation of self and this is as much part of our evolutionary process, as was creating fire and hunting. self realisation is something which was built over time with the creation of community, society and a life that had been elevated above the food chain. and ultimately created the idea of gods and deities to explain the things we couldnt

survival is so part of the evolutionary framework and is prevelant today. motivation to life is something inbuilt into every living creature. flowers for example. they don't have a conscious but adapt to survive. through various methods, each a different mutation and cross breading. gradually weeding out the weakest strains. the motivation to live doesn't require a consiousness as it inherentaly built into us.

we are constantly evolving, just not in aphysical sense anymore. physicallity just represents prowess and strenght which where required early on. it is said the next evolutionary step that humans have taken is the ability to deal and cope with stress. that around 10 % of society have a diferent nurological response to this and so acheive higher and succeed in the conventional terms. this is something that is not prevelant in everyone or something that was needed 2000 years ago. it is a reatively new concept but is thought by some major psycological bodies to be a accurate response to survival in our modern day and our adaption and change to our enviroment

your idea of infinity is bound by human logic which is why you can't understand the concept of what infinity is as all human logic is bound by boundaries.

such is god.

[snowblind]

Quote:
becuase if we are god, then god works on human logic and therefore is flawed by all the above points.
You're breaking up now.

ill iterate then, your pc must be whack cus i thought only phones broke up.

the bible states we where created from god.
therefore we are his sons and daughters
therefore we inherite his god traits
but we also inherit his bad ones
if every human is a representation of god on earth
then god is all the bad things aswell

or is that the snakes fault

on another note, god is a hypocrite and didnt forgive lucifer

yet he created him and therefore created an inherant evil in him

see flawed logic

was that clear

didnt break up or anything

[natureisawesome]

snowblind said:

the ideas of logic, reason, complex thought trains, contemplation these evolved. through interataction and time. they didnt just appear in our brains, we had to create the right nurological framework and connections to alllow our brain to function that way.

We had to create them? You know back in the early 1900's their was a popular idea going around within evolutionary circles. They believed that we could make ourselves evolve just by trying. They believed if you concentrated hard enough, you could force yourself to evolve and get smarter, stronger etc. And this is for real and all of this was based on an idea of Darwin of what was the mechanism for what caused evolution, as it was still unknown. He devised an idea called pangenesis.

Pangenesis: use and disuse

The idea that random mutations just happened to fall into place wildly contradicting all probablility and the laws of nature is what is fantasy.

Let me show you show you something. Here is a part of a word, see if you can guess the missing letters: cre tor . Now I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to guess that that is supposed to be creator. See, you can guess that becuase you have intelligence and a conscienceness. You can make a choice or make a different choice. But random mutations cannot guess that letter. Not only are the odds against them in guessing that letter ( which would in real life be dna), it would in all probability scramble the rest of the sentence too. It might turn out to be adsgfgfhfgh. Or it might have on letters at all. They could be totally destroyed by radiation.

flowers for example. they don't have a conscious but adapt to survive. through various methods, each a different mutation and cross breading. gradually weeding out the weakest strains.

You just don't understand genetics at all. Survival of the fittest is a reality, but just not as part of an evolutionary framework. The traits and information that cause some plants or dogs to be more fit than others is already there, in it's dna. It didn't magically appear. The problem is when you go from those kind of changes that are just genetic variability, and then you just jump to big changes that is, increase in genetic information caused by random mutations which have NEVER been observed.

There is so much I can say about all the lies and fake evidence in evolution, one thread is just not enough. Besides, isn't this supposed to be about the big bang. Your words need a response though.

your idea of infinity is bound by human logic which is why you can't understand the concept of what infinity is as all human logic is bound by boundaries.

As far as understanding anything goes, human logic is all we have. Human understanding and reasoning. That's it. If you want to scrutinise our understanding of infinity, then you have to scrutinize our entire thinking process, and well and there's really no way to do that since the only thinking and feeling capabilites you would use to scrutinize your thinking and feling capabilites are the ones you already have, and those would be in question. And even if you had back up thinking and feeling capabilites, these would necessarily come under question as well. You would come to a dead end and very likely turn to nihilism, but really this can't even be a sure thing for you since your judgement skills you used to turn to nihilism could be faulty
too. Things really just go downhill from there but ultimately you must either face or deny yourself.

Whether you choose to deny yourself or accept your own existence, either way proves that someone or something made the choice to do it - you. Therefore since you do exist, you can be absolutely sure that this much of your judgement skills is practical. You may now proceed to gain your own trust of reality. If you need help doing this I can help you.

If you don't like or trust having personal convictions or having value judgment skills then too bad, there's nothing you can do about it. It's built into you and the only thing you can do if you don't like it or trust it is to tell yourself it's all in your head and live in hipocrisy by using those judment skills in your day to day life.

Or you can be reasonable and just accept that it is reasonable and practical and wonder how such magnificent sentient manifestations such as love, virtue,courage, beauty,compassion, patience, charity, honesty etc. could be manifested by anything but another sentient being.

Aside from that, if you are saying that the universe is infinite, you have to have an understanding of what infinity is. To ask whether the universe is infinite and then say we're ignorant about what infinity is contradictory.

the bible states we where created from god.
therefore we are his sons and daughters
therefore we inherite his god traits
but we also inherit his bad ones
if every human is a representation of god on earth
then god is all the bad things aswell

or is that the snakes fault

on another note, god is a hypocrite and didnt forgive lucifer

yet he created him and therefore created an inherant evil in him

Man didn't fall because of any weakness inherited from God. Man had a choice, and he made a bad choice. His weakness was born out of his own corrupted desires. And the same is true today.

Some things God won't even forgive man for as well. God hasn't revealed all of what happened in heaven, but he has proven himself trustworthy by many infallible truths.

[natureisawesome]

p.s., stay tuned I'm typing something up to start a thread. This should get you thinking.

[natureisawesome]

I would as a last note like to add, that in dna, just as with the creator word example I showed you above, random mutations wouldn't even be able to guess the hidden letter at all. Period. Why not? Because For mutations to take place, there has to be genetic information to begin with. for example radiation to affect it and a muitation to take place. So If it was crektor, then it could mutate it (this is of course, much simplified) and there is a very very very slight possibility the letter could be changed to the right one. But the same mutation that hit that letter could hit the other letters too just as easily, so that the whole thing is totally randomized or destroyed. Genetic information btw, is very very very very fragile, and for it to survive it needs to be preserved within an already living cell, with the ability to survive and pass on it's information.

If you read through a high school science book you may find them talking about mutations and evolution, and they'll talk about good mutations and show you a picture of a bad one. Fruit flies is a popular example. They've been hitting fruitflies with radiation for decades and decades and decades, but they have never seen an increase in genetic information. They've gotten lots and lots of deformaties, and that's it.

An even more incredible fact about dna is that it needs rna to read it, like a computer program needs an os to read it. So few people even partially grasp the incredible complexity of this system, it is so complex and amazing. The human mind itself is hardly understood. We only understand a tiny tiny fraction of all the brains wirings and functions. When it comes to that kind of stuff, humans remind me of chimpanzees banging on the keyboard.

It's one thing to say dna evolved, but for rna to evolve at the same time. NO. The first is not possible and the second is laughable.