Christians on board?

[jdmarcus59]

Well, *you* say we have a God-given right to defend ourselves, but that isn't what Jesus taught.

Here are some examples:

"But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him."

No self-defense there. It's pretty clear what he's saying: if people hurt you, allow it. You can also go to the 10 Commandments: "thou shalt not kill". There are no exceptions; it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill unless someone is trying to kill you" or anything like that.

More from Jesus:

""Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly."

"You know the commandments: you must not kill..."

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."

So, while you may think you have a God-given right to self-defense, Jesus would not agree with you. That puts you in a disagreement with the Son of God, and I'm pretty sure He wins all those arguments. This means that you aren't *really* Christian, as I am not, because while I don't think God gave me the right to self-defense, I assert that right for myself, despite the fact that it is the antithesis of what Jesus taught.

There are many more examples of Jesus' pacifism of course.

my freind I do not know why you are hung up on this, but I tell you the truth, we have a right to defend those who can not defend them selfs, if you saw a man hurting a child would you try
to stop the man, or would you let the man kill the small child. by stoping the man you are doing good not wrong. in the old testment
many men of God like King david went out and killed the enemy of God at God command, so that Gods people would rule. if you dont belive me read it your self.now is it the Lords will that we should fight are kill each other? no of course not, but we live in a fallen world. when Jesus was talking about turning the other check, He was talking about if some one wrongs you do not try also to hurt them, but to forgive them, He was not talking about self defence, or are right to defend are selfs aganst evil, for the new testment surly teaches that we are to stand aganst all form of evil. And as far as me being a christian Iam, and it is not right for you to judge
for it is written " Do not judge, or you to will be judged. and that is all that needs to be said on this subject. If you are concerend about the things that Jesus said, then be concerend about your own soul, are you Born again? cause Jesus said " no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again"

[natureisawesome]

Jamstigator, you are right in that Jesus taught pacificm, that we are not to retaliate when others try to hurt us or take advantage of us, period. It's not right for us to stand up and say " this is too far. I know what Jesus said but this is just too far". No, it's not too far. Jesus gave the word and we must obey. And those who disobey will recieve the consequences.

But as far as the commandment "thou shalt not kill", it's clearly speaking of murder, of taking a life without just cause. When the Israelites put someone to death, it was because someone broke the laws that God had given them. Therefore it was not them taking action into thier own hands, only carrying out God's ordinances. And if they did not keep justice, they recieved severe discipline from God.

But God has given us a new commandment since that old levittical law has been abolished (not the 10 commandments mind you) saying we must not repay evil with evil period. But rather we should do good to all men, and do kindness to those who persecute us.

Jdmarcus,

that's not what is meant by judge when Jesus says that. Go study it in the Greek.

If you want to talk about judging, judging is when you retaliate on another, even if he has done something wrong to you. That's real judging. You judge him guilty and carry out the consequences by hurting him or some other way, taking things into your own hands. We have the freedom to have an opinion, to speak out against wrong, and not live in ignorance.

When it comes to judging, I don't vote for that reason. Besides the fact that this country was founded upon rebellion, and that the us.. is preserved by the same principle, voting is outright judging of others. You excercise power over another through your ballot to do what you think is right. That's judging.

Now judge yourself so you will not be judged, and follow after the spirit and righteousness, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I see a lot of flesh in this thread, and I wish there was more Spirit.

[deadfan420]

Islam ? ... 'don't murder' ? ... animals ? .. Islam regards animals as filthy, unlcean beasts for the most part, un-worthy of life ... yeah, and we've all seen how they have "strived to make the world a better place" ... don't fall into the "only Islam radicals feel that way" crap ... read the Koran, it is a vicious, murderous cult full of hate for non-believers ... as a Christian, I won't hate you if you turn to Islam, (or anything else), but I will pray for your salvation ... hope you work it all out, while you still have time ... :smokin:

No offense, but how many Muslims do you know personally? How many mosques have you been to? I have many good Muslim friends and have been to several mosques.

I don't want to turn this thread into a Islam vs. Christianity thing, but I must respond to your, what I perceive, as insults:

-The only animal Muslims perceive as unclean are pigs. If an animal must be killed for food, it must be done swiftly, cleanly and not in the presence of babies (animals). The animals also must be well fed and given plenty of drinking water, with lots of room to roam around. Compare that to the slaughterhouses and factory farms we have here.

-The Qur'an. Have you read it? It's filled with allegories and metaphors, just like the bible is. And you can't rely on a translation, because Muslims don't regard that as the true Qur'an. For example, the popular myth of the 70 virgins thing is merely a metaphor. In Arabic, Virgins are a symbol of purity. And the Arabic number for 70 (or whatever the exact number is) is like saying in English: "I called you a million times". Of course you don't mean that literally. But that's the problem with translation, it doesn't grasp these concepts that exist in the Arabic language.

-As far as Muslims being a murderous cult, you can say that about any religion. Christianity has a brutal history. Bush (a devout Christian) himself said God told him to invade Iraq. So much for that love and tolerance I keep hearing about.

-Muslims hate non-believers? Maybe some do, just as some Christians are intolerant of non-Christians. The Qur'an says non-believers must be protected and treated with respect. The famous verse about killing unbelievers was revealed at a time when the Prophet was being constantly attacked by pagans and God basically gave him permission to defend himself.


Again, I don't want to turn this thread into a smear campaign against religions, I don't believe in that. I apologize if anyone thinks that's my intentions.

But don't judge a religion until you know something about it. There's a lot of propaganda out there and you can't believe everything you hear. The best way to learn about Islam is to (here's a shocker) make friends with Muslims, check out a mosque and learn what they really believe - not what some preacher thinks they believe.

The Muslims I know have a deep respect for Judaism and Christianity. They don't judge. Even when I told them I smoked weed they were very curious about it - never rebuked me like some of my Christian friends did.

This is the one thing I can't stand about religion: that "holier than thou" attitude. You displayed it in your own post. You said your going to "pray for my salvation" - like you're somehow above me and I need your prayers. Well don't waste your time. I'd rather have no one praying for me at all than one person who is so intolerant of other's beliefs. You're not giving Christianity a good name. My parents, who are strong Christians, might not like my interest in Islam, but they can at least respect it. They can at least know when to ask questions and they know the difference between propoganda and real beliefs. They really do espouse the christian ideal of "love and tolerance." You don't seem to have that.

Sorry for the rant.

[deadfan420]

I should probably also mention that I have been to the Middle East. Their hospitality over there really puts the west to shame. They love talking and learning about other cultures. The call to prayer (played over a loudspeaker five times a day) is beautiful and the prayer times really give them a perspective on life. For almost 30 minutes a day they forget about business, war, and other worldly problems and focus on their spirituality - and it shows in their demeanor and attitude.

[jdmarcus59]

Jamstigator, you are right in that Jesus taught pacificm, that we are not to retaliate when others try to hurt us or take advantage of us, period. It's not right for us to stand up and say " this is too far. I know what Jesus said but this is just too far". No, it's not too far. Jesus gave the word and we must obey. And those who disobey will recieve the consequences.

But as far as the commandment "thou shalt not kill", it's clearly speaking of murder, of taking a life without just cause. When the Israelites put someone to death, it was because someone broke the laws that God had given them. Therefore it was not them taking action into thier own hands, only carrying out God's ordinances. And if they did not keep justice, they recieved severe discipline from God.
in
But God has given us a new commandment since that old levittical law has been abolished (not the 10 commandments mind you) saying we must not repay evil with evil period. But rather we should do good to all men, and do kindness to those who persecute us.

Jdmarcus,

that's not what is meant by judge when Jesus says that. Go study it in the Greek.

If you want to talk about judging, judging is when you retaliate on another, even if he has done something wrong to you. That's real judging. You judge him guilty and carry out the consequences by hurting him or some other way, taking things into your own hands. We have the freedom to have an opinion, to speak out against wrong, and not live in ignorance.

When it comes to judging, I don't vote for that reason. Besides the fact that this country was founded upon rebellion, and that the us.. is preserved by the same principle, voting is outright judging of others. You excercise power over another through your ballot to do what you think is right. That's judging.

Now judge yourself so you will not be judged, and follow after the spirit and righteousness, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I see a lot of flesh in this thread, and I wish there was more Spirit.

in matthews ch. 7 jesus teaches about criticizings others He tells us to examine our own MOTIVES and conduct instead of judging others, as in removing the plank out of are own eye, my point was that are dear friend here should not judge my faith, but first take a look at his own heart first. it was a simple statement, not one to be taken out of context.Jesus statement "do not judge" is against the kind of hypocritical judgemental attitude that tears others down in order to build one self up, as in you are not a christian because ect......like I said before this was a simple statement, one that should not be taken out of context. and I think we are clear on this. it is not somthing to argue over. peace

[jamstigator]

I'm not 'hung up' on Jesus' pacifism. It is what it is. I greatly respect the few who actually do practice what he taught. But it's an unworkable stance in the real world, unless you want evil to just roll over everyone. I *would* help those who can't help themselves, even if I had to commit acts of violence in doing so. But in good conscience, knowing that I would violate the teachings of Jesus if I deemed it necessary to save lives, I cannot call myself Christian.

Jesus taught what he did because what he promised was bliss in the afterlife; he never said you'd find bliss in *this* life, pretty much just misery and suffering. Likewise, the evil folks will pay for their misdeeds in the *afterlife*, not necessarily in this life. So, in that context, complete nonviolence does make sense. Let evil take over, it doesn't matter, they'll pay for it later. However, being from the Show Me State, I have seen no convincing evidence that there *is* an afterlife, and if there isn't, then the teachings of Jesus just results in evil rolling over people in *this* life. And I can't accept that.

[LegalizeTheGreen]

I have to say it is disgusting to see some of the anti muslim campaigns going on by some people from this site. By generalizing like that you not only embarress yourself, but your country, faith, and family.

now as for Jesus being all passive, remember when he went agro on the moneychangers in the temple? even the son of God can raise a little ruckus, so I don't think he meant everything completle literaly, more figurativly. He did afterall have a thing for parables

[BlueDevil]

now as for Jesus being all passive, remember when he went agro on the moneychangers in the temple? even the son of God can raise a little ruckus, so I don't think he meant everything completle literaly, more figurativly. He did afterall have a thing for parables

LOL@ the WoW reference! But you're right, there's this popular image of the one they call Jesus being some kind of pacifist, which is odd as we know on one occasion he incited a riot where people were likely killed and he himself employed a whip - a weapon that focuses on pain creation mind you. Funny behavior for a pacifist!

Anyway, I'm another ex-christian. Had my doubts at an early age but didn't stand up to my mother over it until my teens, it was quite a family flap. The various versions of the bible are all products of man, and for them to be referred to as 'the word of god' is not only entirely false, but almost comical given the sanctity people place on the tradition. While I don't have a problem with people practicing whatever gives them hope or a sense of belonging, it would be a little easier to take christians seriously if they actually acted a little, you know, christ-like. That many talk down to those that have the nerve not to view the world through a similar idealogical lens just makes their image all the worse.
If they follow the teachings of this Jesus, why emphasize the gospels and not the Beatitudes? If "the bible" is sacred and holy, why do mortals get to edit and/or ignore the parts of scripture they don't agree with? Why were 19 commandments hacked down to 10? I refuse to place such sanctity on something that's been impaired by centuries of ego, bias, politics, and in places good ol mythology.

With the exception of evangelicals, I like christians and count them among my friends and family.

With regards to the Islamic posts earlier, I feel it's germane to share some of my own experiences. I spent a number of years living in the Middle East as a kid, specifically Qatar and Oman. Later in life, I attended high school and college in the deep south (the Bible Belt is an apt term). In 5 years of living "downrange," I never had a single muslim confront me, ridicule me, or insult me for being a Western non-Muslim. On the contrary, my family and I were shown every hospitality and treated like near royalty. Fast forward to college - being hassled by Baptists on campus was an almost weekly event. Local churches would picket bars and clubs and heckle people going in or leaving, same with concerts. Six blocks from my apartment a woman's clinic doctor and his bodyguard were assassinated by a gunman while I was unpacking my car from a road trip -heard the shots fired and subsequent police sirens.

Now don't take that as willful ignorance concerning the existence of bomb-ladden jihadi, I just harbor no illusions that every religion has it's share of wackos (Westboro Baptists anyone? KKK?)

[rebgirl420]

These are all interesting takes. RebGirl, I'm curious... lets say if you had someone over for dinner and they prayed before the meal... would you ask them to leave? Or just for you and John? And if your kids are like "Sally and Jimmy invited us to VBS" would you say they couldn't go? Personally I wouldn't allow wicca or satanism in my house, and if my kids asked if they could go to an equinox ritual or whatever I would say no... but that's because I believe there can be real metaphysical aftereffects. Just curious how it plays from an atheist perspective.

No I wouldn't make someone who prayed at my dinner table leave. Though I would tell them that I am indeed atheist (as is my future family) and in my house I don't want any prayer. And I dont know what VBS is but I assume its a christian event and no I wouldnt let my children go. But dont assume that I wouldn't teach my kids about other religions. They need to know about all of the religions so that when their adults they can make their own decisions about faith.

[nightlight]

LOL@ the WoW reference! But you're right, there's this popular image of the one they call Jesus being some kind of pacifist, which is odd as we know on one occasion he incited a riot where people were likely killed and he himself employed a whip - a weapon that focuses on pain creation mind you. Funny behavior for a pacifist!

Anyway, I'm another ex-christian. Had my doubts at an early age but didn't stand up to my mother over it until my teens, it was quite a family flap. The various versions of the bible are all products of man, and for them to be referred to as 'the word of god' is not only entirely false, but almost comical given the sanctity people place on the tradition. While I don't have a problem with people practicing whatever gives them hope or a sense of belonging, it would be a little easier to take christians seriously if they actually acted a little, you know, christ-like. That many talk down to those that have the nerve not to view the world through a similar idealogical lens just makes their image all the worse.
If they follow the teachings of this Jesus, why emphasize the gospels and not the Beatitudes? If "the bible" is sacred and holy, why do mortals get to edit and/or ignore the parts of scripture they don't agree with? Why were 19 commandments hacked down to 10? I refuse to place such sanctity on something that's been impaired by centuries of ego, bias, politics, and in places good ol mythology.

With the exception of evangelicals, I like christians and count them among my friends and family.

With regards to the Islamic posts earlier, I feel it's germane to share some of my own experiences. I spent a number of years living in the Middle East as a kid, specifically Qatar and Oman. Later in life, I attended high school and college in the deep south (the Bible Belt is an apt term). In 5 years of living "downrange," I never had a single muslim confront me, ridicule me, or insult me for being a Western non-Muslim. On the contrary, my family and I were shown every hospitality and treated like near royalty. Fast forward to college - being hassled by Baptists on campus was an almost weekly event. Local churches would picket bars and clubs and heckle people going in or leaving, same with concerts. Six blocks from my apartment a woman's clinic doctor and his bodyguard were assassinated by a gunman while I was unpacking my car from a road trip -heard the shots fired and subsequent police sirens.

Now don't take that as willful ignorance concerning the existence of bomb-ladden jihadi, I just harbor no illusions that every religion has it's share of wackos (Westboro Baptists anyone? KKK?)

i just watched the westboro baptist church documentary last night. that shit is out of control. i wanted to put my fist through the screen the whole time and that is rather out of character for me.