ok listen here.......

[Hardcore Newbie]

That is fine, but why cant one just enjoy the path they have found, without the need to try to "convert" people, which always seems more like what I said before, belittling their belief system and telling them they need to replace it with yours.

Love. They don't want to see their fellow man in a lake of fire. My dad's side of the family is constantly trying to convert me, but they're only doing it because they love me. They mean well, so I never question their intentions, as i know they're good intentions.

Thats the kind of person as a God you would want in your kingdom to be given eternal reward for their actions. The person who didnt need the fear of God and retribution to cause them to lead a good life. Those people who led a good life without the need of anyone telling them to, or giving them a set of guidelines. They truely are the chosen ones, because their soul was pure and they were able to pass all the tests without even knowing that they were being tested.

If there is a god, this is the only doctrine i'd be able to see as truth, because it makes sense. The almighty, a truly perfect being, has no place for an ego.

[bhouncy]

I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".

I love your cogent argument. And your isomorphism tickles me pink!

[Hardcore Newbie]

I love your cogent argument. And your isomorphism tickles me pink!

Thanks, now I have to look up the word "isomorphism"

There are quite a few definitions, but I'll take it to mean something close to "analogy"

I made the example up on the spot too

[jdmarcus59]

The idea of the man that they call Jesus appeals to me for what he values. Peace and love. But there are peace loving cats going around today who say similar things. Does that make them the son of this thing called god? Do their words prove the existence of what they say? I am a peace loving guy. If I hear a quite voice inside of me telling me to spread love and happiness and that also there is 4 gods and one of them is called Steph who is actually a transsexual then would people believe me? Whether they believe or not doesn't make it real. You can be a loving person and question what the fuck is going on.

what you just said proves my point.

[bhouncy]

what you just said proves my point.

Please remind me of your point. That nobody knows what is going on and people can be easily led to believe in absolutely anything?

[slipknotpsycho]

I will admit that I could be wrong about alot of things, but since it's written in truth and I have substance and evidence to prove it, God is true. There is no middle ground. He either is or is not. And I know for certain that he is. Just because you decided to stop believing in him, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Actually, it tells me that you never had faith. I'm sorry to bust your bubble, but once you have obtained "faith", you can not loose him. Faith is a person. If you want me to believe that God doesn't exist, you will have to remove him from my heart. Look at it from my point of view, how can you expect me to believe you when I have substance and proof that he is alive? So just like you accuse the biblical writers, I know for certain that what you're preaching is a LIE. And liars have no part in the Kingdom of God (you should know from reading). You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all. You guys throw out all these theories and expect them to be accepted as truth. This shit is deep. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to be rooted and grounded in truth. I don't share my point of view on here to change others, but rather to defend the kingdom of God. Come Lord Jesus!!!

What makes unbelievers feel that they have more logic than one that puts his/her faith and trust in the LORD?
Sorry folks, this has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

thank you for proving my point exactly...

[slipknotpsycho]

You need to follow your own advice and humble yourself to the things that are true. You come to the table without any evidence at all.

also, this part actually did make me lol... you have no proof either... and i never claimed to have proof... i also clearly stated i'm not trying ot change anyone's opinion i'm merely stating my own..

this is a message board after all.. and message boards are for sharing opinions....

but yeah, that made me lol... you don't have proof, and neither do i... cuz it's literally impossible to obtain proof either way... it's literally impossible for me to once and for all prove he doesn't exist, and he still has not shown himself for all to see clearly.... as in say, appearing in a mile high body of celestial appearance.. you can say he's everything and all around, but until he shows himself in soemthing that cannot be explained by ANYTHING (such as a mile high half transparent figure) you don't have proof... you have faith..

perhaps you should REALLY look up faith in the dictionary, then look up proof... hell.. i'll do it for you...

FAITH -

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
â??Idiom9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

PROOF -

1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5. Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6. the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7. an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.
8. Mathematics, Logic. a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.
9. a test to determine the quality, durability, etc., of materials used in manufacture.
10. Distilling. a. the arbitrary standard strength, as of an alcoholic liquor.
b. strength with reference to this standard: â??100 proofâ?� signifies a proof spirit, usually 50% alcohol.

11. Photography. a trial print from a negative.
12. Printing. a. a trial impression, as of composed type, taken to correct errors and make alterations.
b. one of a number of early and superior impressions taken before the printing of the ordinary issue: to pull a proof.

13. (in printmaking) an impression taken from a plate or the like to show the quality or condition of work during the process of execution; a print pulled for examination while working on a plate, block, stone, etc.
14. Numismatics. one of a limited number of coins of a new issue struck from polished dies on a blank having a polished or matte surface.
15. the state of having been tested and approved.
16. proved strength, as of armor.
17. Scots Law. the trial of a case by a judge alone, without a jury.
â??adjective 18. able to withstand; successful in not being overcome: proof against temptation.
19. impenetrable, impervious, or invulnerable: proof against outside temperature changes.
20. used for testing or proving; serving as proof.
21. of standard strength, as an alcoholic liquor.
22. of tested or proven strength or quality: proof armor.
23. noting pieces of pure gold and silver that the U.S. assay and mint offices use as standards.
â??verb (used with object) 24. to test; examine for flaws, errors, etc.; check against a standard or standards.
25. Printing. prove (def. 7).
26. to proofread.
27. to treat or coat for the purpose of rendering resistant to deterioration, damage, etc. (often used in combination): to proof a house against termites; to shrink-proof a shirt.
28. Cookery. a. to test the effectiveness of (yeast), as by combining with warm water so that a bubbling action occurs.
b. to cause (esp. bread dough) to rise due to the addition of baker's yeast or other leavening.


religion has not been tested to a point to where anything is proof... and quite frankly that's all there is to it... a 2000+ year old book is not proof... proof is something solid, something tangible, something that can be tested, and confirm... there are no tests you could apply to faith to make it proof... well not that will help us anyways... the only real test is following the teachings and finding out if you were right when you die. but since no one's going to be able to confirm either way after they die to the rest of the living world, there is no test applicable here....

dunno why you're having such a hard time understanding this concept...

[slipknotpsycho]

LOGIC -

1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.
6. Computers. logic circuit.


just for the record.... we are more 'logical' becuase there's alot more proof pointing towards no god, then there is of a god existing... that's called logic... does logic mean it's always right? NO not by any means or in any way... but with the solid evidence present to us, the logical answer is he's not here. simply because the book is completely contridictory... he loves his chlidren, but lets them suffer. he's all forgiving and loving, but if you do wrong he will condemn you to eternal torture... there is no real case for there beign a god... you just have some words written in a book.... a book which makes alot of statements, but hardly ever coincides with life as we know it...

[Pass That Shit]

I disagree. Who are you to say "it's impossible to lose faith"? How do you back up this claim? Faith is not evidence, faith is not knowledge, faith is not proof. Faith by definition is the exact opposite of these things, faith is more equivalent to hope than anything. How can you say it's impossible to lose faith? Losing faith is very possible, because i have believed in god, and now I don't. If you're trying to tell me that i didn't believe in god as a child, you're mistaken. I can *prove* that someone can lose faith, keep reading.

"Rooted and grounded in truth" is something I've heard of before. Just because someone is rooted and standing their ground firmer than another, that doesn't make their beliefs *more true*, for lack of better words at this moment.

If we have 3 people A, B and C, and 2 of them, A and B, have been told as children their multiplication tables without an explanation as to how they work. they're just given the table and expected to memorize it. There's a problem with this multiplication table tho, it states that 2x2=5. But since the children don't know how multiplication works, they use the multiplication table without giving a second thought as to whether it could be wrong. C comes along, who has actually learned how multiplication works, and tells them that 2x2=4, and can demonstrate why this is so over and over. B decides that, since he now knows how to multiply, he stops believing that 2x2=5. A takes what his teacher taught him as proof, and he is very rooted and grounded in "the truth".

Now, this story is NOT meant as a comparison of logic and belief, although it is a decent simplification of that as well. This story is meant to show that just because someone is very grounded in their beliefs, and believes it whole heartedly, it doesn't make them right. It also shows that someone can believe and then disbelieve, or "lose faith".

First of all, words have a natural and a spritual meaning to them. Faith on an earthly level can go in and out. People can believe in God and then after learning more they stopped believing in God. Faith on a spiritual level is a person, and he has comforted us and told us that he would never leave us. So if someone was truly baptized with the Holy Ghost, the word of God tells us that it's a permanent thing. So my proof always go back to the word of God. So if you can try to understand, Faith being a person is the substance and evidence inside the person. The spiritual being himself makes the substance and evidence. Get it?

Alot of religious people on here don't get it about Jesus being the Holy Spirit. He's not only God the son. He tells us that where two or three gathered together in his name, that he is there in the midst. How can this be possible? He does not mean that he will be there physically, Jesus is claiming to be the Holy Spirit.

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On a completely different topic, :stoned:
I was out watering and saw a beautiful rainbow. It is comforting to know that the waters that destroyed the earth, will never happen again. What does science tells us about the rainbow?

[imitator]

That it is the optical separation of color bands in a ray of light do to refraction such as passing light through a crystal or in this case, water drops.

All of which is generally up for interpretation on a person by person basis, because what we see as a rainbow is just our perception of light traveling through something that causes refraction.

What I see as blue, might not be the same thing that is blue to you. And we have no way of ever knowing what another person see's and how they see it. Colorblindness is a lovely thing that caused lots of debate in one of my philo classes back in the day.

How do you explain to a person who is color blind what colors are, and what they look like? And how do we know that they have the problem, and we dont? Also, if no one had told this person that colors did exist, how would they have ever known? They couldnt know what colors are unless an external force explained or showed them to them. So they could live their entire lives, without ever knowing colors existed in the way we do, and that would be their reality.