Atheist Sues to Thwart Inauguration Prayer (Newdow)

[GHoSToKeR]

Howdy GhostToker,

You stated:"Torog, we've obviously been raised differently. We will probably raise our children differently. But just because we have different beliefs - you a Christian, me agnostic - doesnt mean that either of us is wrong; we're just different. "

I believe that essentially,you're probably right-however..I do feel that a parent should teach their children,right from wrong,not allow the children to decide.

Children,should be treated as children-not like little adults..liberals and gays,in America,are exploiting our children,and usurping parental authority,by treating children as little adults. I didn't treat my daughter like an adult,until she turned 18,I gave her more responsibility,as she grew older,but I was always the final arbiter of moral decisions..also,I didn't stop being a parent,once she grew up..I still give her advice and counsel-and will continue to do so,in a constructive way,with room for discussion,for the rest of my life.

Have a good one...Torog

my mum has always been there for me, to give me advice and to help me make decisions, and when i was younger she did teach me right from wrong.. but when it comes to religion, relationships, ethics, etc, she has let me decide for myself. Now you may have taken a different approach with your daughter, but ive turned out fine, and from what it sounds, so has your daughter.. so neither you or my mother were wrong, you just did things differently. thats all im saying

[Torog]

my mum has always been there for me, to give me advice and to help me make decisions, and when i was younger she did teach me right from wrong.. but when it comes to religion, relationships, ethics, etc, she has let me decide for myself. Now you may have taken a different approach with your daughter, but ive turned out fine, and from what it sounds, so has your daughter.. so neither you or my mother were wrong, you just did things differently. thats all im saying

Howdy GhostToker,

I'm sure that you realize,that you do indeed have a great mother,not everyone-is so lucky,to have such a good and caring parent or parents.

In my world-the parents lead and the children follow,with the father being the natural leader of the household..and if there's no dad in the picture,the mother is expected to fill both roles - and vice-versa,if there is no clear 'leader'..then one can only expect chaos. A family,should be a unit with clearly established roles and rules,they should love,respect and serve each other.

Have a good one...Torog

[Nullific]

Morals are bullshit, im sorry but you cannot legislate morality.
What you are attempting to do is make your religion law and in a nation that is supposedly tolerant of the beliefs and customs of others this should not be possible.
If you choose to live a certain way full of morals and god loving then go for it but everybody likes to say that this hell hole is a free country so shouldn't people be able to live how they want so long as they don't harm other people or their property?

[GHoSToKeR]

On the subject of whether or not America is a christian nation or not -

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism...nts.html#usais

[GHoSToKeR]

On the subject of freedom of expression regarding religious beliefs -

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism...ents.html#bush

what a great guy to have as president.. yea... right.....

[NowhereMan]

Morals are bullshit, im sorry but you cannot legislate morality.
What you are attempting to do is make your religion law and in a nation that is supposedly tolerant of the beliefs and customs of others this should not be possible.
If you choose to live a certain way full of morals and god loving then go for it but everybody likes to say that this hell hole is a free country so shouldn't people be able to live how they want so long as they don't harm other people or their property?

Morals .....i like mine breaded and deep fried please.

[GHoSToKeR]

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1987. Sherman is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the presidential primary:

RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"

GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me."

RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"

GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?"

GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists."

UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks.

The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27, 1989. It can also be found in "Free Inquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue, Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.

On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane, co-chairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a lawsuit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School District 21 (Chicago, Illinois) from forcing his first-grade atheist son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States as "one nation under God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place:

RS: "American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday. Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?"

EM: "It's bullshit."

RS: "What is bullshit?"

EM: "Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is bullshit."

RS: "Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush campaign is on this issue."

EM: "You're welcome."

After Bush's election, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract his statement. On February 21st 1989, C. Boyden Gray, Counsel to the President, replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by his original statement, and wrote:

"As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government."

[GHoSToKeR]

Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers, it is clear that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation. Here are some quotes; there are more in a companion document, and the archives at ftp.mantis.co.uk contain still more.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

[align=right][James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.][/align]

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

[align=right][John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.][/align]

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

[align=right][Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.][/align]

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
[align=right][Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728.][/align]

[maryjanemama]

Ghost, I agree with you and in no way support George W. Bush, but the comments made in your second to last post were made by his father and his father's administration. Not by George W. Bush, we can't hold him accountable for his father's mistakes. He's made a mountain of his own all by himself.

[GHoSToKeR]

oops.. my bad.. thanks for pointing that out, MJM

Although, I doubt GWB feels any differently...