For all o'you atheists out there...

[gmoney88]

lol conscientious hydropalatical equilibrial mechanisms causes the eradication of semi-porous molecular...im lost.

[zsouj]

How we view our relation to these polarities also ultimately determines whether we think of the universe as 'God' or as 'mechanism'; whether we would call ourselves 'spiritual', or 'atheist'. Really, they're two different angles of looking at the exact same thing.

Quite interesting point of view I think

[darth stoner]

I have a proposition for you.

Consider this carefully:

If we're not creations of a 'supernatural' God who put us into the universe, it would follow that we naturally came out of the universe, and that we are therefore a natural expression of the universe, correct?

If you agree to that, then consider this:

I don't agree with that. I don't understand why you conclude that if we're not the creation of a supernatural god, then we must have come from outside the universe.

If you follow that line of thought, then you must ask who created the creator, and the creator of the creator, and the creator of the creator of the creator (ad infinitum).

[afghooey]

I don't agree with that. I don't understand why you conclude that if we're not the creation of a supernatural god, then we must have come from outside the universe.

If you follow that line of thought, then you must ask who created the creator, and the creator of the creator, and the creator of the creator of the creator (ad infinitum).

Ah, I think you just misunderstood me. I didn't say we came from outside of the universe. I said that, unless a supernatural God put us here, we came out of the universe from inside.

[ukmonkey]

Because its not an isolated fluke.

Conciousness developed over millions of years. Thousands of different animal species, including humans. Nothing came from nowhere. Giraffes are tall because they need to reach leaves in high places. Sharks have gills so they can breath underwater....these kind of attributes developed over millions and millions of years. Think of all the animals who didnt make it because they weren't suited to the enviroment. Did god put them there to fail?

Saying "God did it" is the biggest cop out of all because it prevents you from trying to figure whats really going on. Religion encloses your mind in a box, "this is what happened...is happening....will happen...how you should live, think and act".

Imagine being born in a room. A single room. A person tells you that this is the world. You're never allowed to leave the room, you only do what your told because this is what you know. Reality is what you're presented with.

Imagine you're born in China and raised a buddhist. It's safe to say you'd believe in buddhism with the same conviction as you do christianty.

What boggles my mind is how people are told something. Grown up with something and automatically they believe it with such conviction that they are willing to die for it, kill for it, start wars over it.

Education (in the western world primarily) focuses on facts and figures...you learn things, you write them down in an exam and generally forget them soon after. This strengthens the side of the brain dealing with facts so that when you are told something it sticks in your head....religion, advertising, propaganda.

How is it even remotely conceivable that there is one way for everyone to run thier lives, one set of rules, morals and ideals that works for everyone. It can't happen. I believe in evolution because it's been proved by science...i can see how it works and that it makes sense. Beyond that I have absolutley no clue of the meaning of life and I never will....no one will.

I believe in ideas and philosophies.....you can change an idea....you can develop a philosophy. Your life experience shapes who and what you are. Not what was written in a book by other people hundreds of years ago.

I couldn't have worded my own views better myself! :rastasmoke:

[afghooey]

reaper666 -- an interesting theory, seems very plausible to me, and in fact doesn't seem too far off from the point I made in my (larger) post above... if I'm understanding you correctly, anyway.

Basically, your idea of subconscious is a system that 'handles' the complex reactions between particles which our normal consciousness or 'fuzzy logic' can't percieve, right?

What I was saying was similar, except I don't believe that this system necessarily ends at the boundary of our epidermis. Our body isn't an isolated entity; the energy that constitutes our bodies is constantly interacting with all of the other energy surrounding us. Some of this energy bounces off of us, and some of it passes through us. Either way, according to quantum physics (or at least my limited understanding of it -- if someone can refute this, I'd be glad to hear what they have to say) every interaction of information changes that information. Even our observation of energy can alter it (a huge pain in the ass for quantum physicists, I'm sure). Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that really, the universe is designed to 'handle' interactions with itself, and could therefore (by your definition, if I'm understanding it right) in a way be a subconscious entity in and of itself.

[afghooey]

I like that analogy, even if it is a bit oversimplified.

Here's a further question to ponder on...

If the 'subconscious' mechanisms that control our bodies are dependent on the regulation of a 'conscious' thermostat (and that thermostat is equally dependent on the mechanisms themselves), could it be possible that there is a similar interdependency between the 'subconscious' mechanisms of the universe and a 'master thermostat'; that is, perhaps a higher level of consciousness?

[afghooey]

Mmm, I think I see what you're getting at.

I think I'd have to disagree about life being unnatural, though. IMO, nothing is really unnatural; even those things which we deem to be 'man-made' are just parts of nature that we've manipulated to suit our needs. And as for life being wasteful, I'd have to disagree there too. If energy can't be created or destroyed, then nothing is ever truly wasted because the source is completely inexhaustible.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

if the universe cannot be conscious, neither can we be more conscious than something greater than ourselves.


if the universe = god, then we were created by god.


if the universe was created by god, then there is no god.

[darth stoner]

Ah, I think you just misunderstood me. I didn't say we came from outside of the universe. I said that, unless a supernatural God put us here, we came out of the universe from inside.

Ah, makes sense then. The others already said everything (it used to be a non car world and now it has cars etc), I can't think on anything worth adding right now, all the points that needed to be made seem to have been made already.