Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Also, I find it very sad that you think you love your gay family members, but also think they deserve to be eternally tortured.
I don't believe that they deserve to be eternally tortured. Some Christians believe Hell will come to the end, and that those in it will cease to exist. I tend toward that belief. I believe God will punish them and, unless they have faith in Christ which leads them to follow His commandments, they will not have eternal life. They will suffer punishment in hell, and then cease to exist... what I refer to as eternal death. I can see why some people think hell will last for an eternity, but there are verses in which "forever" simply means for a lifetime. For instance, Duet. chapter 15 says, "He shall be your servant forever," of a servant who simply would serve you for the rest of his life. But if you want to argue whether or not hell is eternal or not, it would probably be best to start another thread.

So while you may not understand it, the fact is, love is my motivation. I love them very deeply, and want them to spend eternity with me. I also want them to have a deeply satisfying life here on earth. God's commands, while they may seem "overly restrictive" at first, always have our best interest in mind in the long run.

If someone refuses to love God and God's ways, then I think God is fair in punishing them and removing them from his presence. He created them after all! How could anyone say that is not fair? It would be ridiculous. And they wouldn't be happy with God anyway, since they hate His ways. So why should he make them suffer with Him and His ways?

Being a Christian does not require me to "hate" anyone. In fact, it has the opposite effect... I find myself thinking of ways to love others more and more. That is the example Christ set before me.

Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut
But did Jesus not say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)?

When Jesus himself says that not one jot or one tittle of Mosaic law can be changed, what justification do Christians have for rejecting the Old Testament laws... If you believe the Old Testament (which includes the Ten Commandments alongside those other, more barbaric laws) to be the word of an omniscient God, then that word ought to be eternally true....

Christ did say all those things you quoted. And the Mosaic law hasn't changed. It is still there for us to study and learn from. But it is not "practiced" any longer. There is a difference.

The disciples did not practice it fully. Jesus himself did not practice it fully when he forgave the prostitute and stopped all the men from stoning her. The question isn't what justification do Christians have for not practicing the Old Testament... it is what justification did Christ and the Apostles have for not practicing the Old Testament.

The Christian Scriptures teach us that the Old Testament's purpose was to show how unable we are to keep God's laws and how serious the trouble is that we are in (even if we don't think it is serious or don't agree with it). And if I read it right, we (including me) are in some pretty deep shit... because I think half of the book is fucking nuts!

The New Testament's purpose is to display the grace and love of God. It has God sending His only Son, Christ, to take our punishment for us, and to teach us to treat each other with the same grace and love He has shown to us. Just like God provided a temporary sacrifice for Abraham in the Old Testament (in that case a lamb), He provided the permanent sacrifice for us in the New Testament (the Lamb of God, Jesus). That is what Christ means when he says He came to "fulfill" the Old Testament.

That doesn't mean all the morals of God are thrown out. There are plenty of morals repeated in the New Testament that we have to follow (including most if not all of the 10 commandments). But my point is that some of those New Testament morals (I've cited them earlier in the thread) directly teach us to *not* yell disrespectful, angry, unkind, rough, and painful words at anyone. To say Christianity lends support to what the Westboro nutjobs are doing is just not true. It just isn't. That might be true of Old Testament Judaism... but Christianity is not Judaism. That after all is why the Jews had Christ slaughtered.

Quote Originally Posted by Oneironaut
If God wants to forgive us, can't he just forgive us? What's with the bloody spectacle of sacrificing himself in a human body? I just don't get it.
To be honest with you, I don't get it entirely either. After studying the Bible for years, I believe the terrible price he paid serves as an example to us as to how terrible sin is and how hard we should strive to avoid it. God's justice demands that sin be punished. Christ's taking our place for us shows the mercy of God and serves as an example of how we should then be willing to put other's needs above our own.

There will always be questions I have about why God does things this way or that way. I'm not God, so I just don't have all the answers. But He does. I know that sounds cheesy, but after years of trying to practice what Christianity teaches all I know is that I have seen God do amazing things in my life. I have learned to love people in ways I never knew I could. I have seen Him change me in ways I didn't think possible, even though He promised me He would. After I trusted Him, life has been so good that I've never looked back. Not even once.
jsn9333 Reviewed by jsn9333 on . Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America I just stumbled across this BBC documentary on Fred Phelps' congregation (the "God Hates Fags" people), and it is quite fascinating to watch these people. It's interesting how what they're doing makes perfect sense from their point of view of Biblical literalism and fundamentalist Christianity, but because they can't see through the bullshit they are rendered incapable of seeing how hateful and harmful their false ideology is. I mean, if you really honestly believe the Bible when it tells you Rating: 5