Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America

[wayoftheleaf]

I don't support the troops in iraq, but what those people are doing is disgraceful in the utmost sense of the word.

[greenvoodoo]

aahhhh I cant even stand to watch another video of those crazies

[Oneironaut]

Also, I didn't say God ordered the execution of kids who tell white lies. I said he doesn't hate homosexuals any more than he hates people who tell white lies.

That was my point, that God does hate homosexuals more than he hates people who tell white lies. He orders the execution of homosexuals, but he does not order the execution of people who tell white lies. If in God's eyes homosexuality is worthy of the death penalty but lying is not, then homosexuality must be a worse crime, right?

He hates sin, but loved the world so much he died for it. He wants those who are disobedient to turn from their sin and be forgiven. While you (along with the Westboro crazies) focus only on the "hate" of God, you ignore the ultimate act of love God committed on the cross... and in doing so you make yourself look as close-minded and blind to love as you try to make Christians out to be.

His ultimate act of love was to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rules that he himself put into place? I'm sorry, but the "logic" of the crucifixion makes no sense to me. What Jesus did was no sacrifice at all. He had to endure a few hours of suffering, then get resurrected, and spend the rest of eternity in bliss while billions of people worship him. I would kill to have an opportunity to do that! If I knew I could endure a few hours of suffering and then never have to suffer again in a perfect heavenly bliss, I would have to be crazy not to do that. It wouldn't be a "sacrifice".

If God wants to forgive us, can't he just forgive us? What's with the bloody spectacle of sacrificing himself in a human body? I just don't get it.

Also, I find it very sad that you think you love your gay family members, but also think they deserve to be eternally tortured. As an atheist, I can say that my love for my family and friends is free of such underpinnings of hatred. I truly love them, in the sense that I don't think they deserve to be the object of everlasting torment. As I said before, it doesn't matter whether or not you behave in a hateful way towards these people when you meet them; if you really truly think they deserve to be eternally tortured, in your heart you hate them. I can't think of a more obvious example of hatred than thinking somebody ought to be tortured forever. What could possibly be a more hateful opinion of someone?

I guess my previous example about Hitler and the Jews wasn't a good one, since you must also hate the Jews if you think you have to accept Jesus Christ to avoid everlasting torment.

[wayoftheleaf]

^^either way he was going to be in eternal life. I am fairly sure in the bible it says at any time jesus could have called down (a thousand angels? correct me if i am wrong please) to help him. He went through the suffering so we humans wouldn't have to offer sacrifice. He made himself the lasting sacrifice so all we have to do is ask for forgiveness instead of burning animals and shit like that.


I think, like i said correct me if any part of this is wrong. I have read the bible in a while.

[Oneironaut]

^^either way he was going to be in eternal life. I am fairly sure in the bible it says at any time jesus could have called down (a thousand angels? correct me if i am wrong please) to help him. He went through the suffering so we humans wouldn't have to offer sacrifice. He made himself the lasting sacrifice so all we have to do is ask for forgiveness instead of burning animals and shit like that.


I think, like i said correct me if any part of this is wrong. I have read the bible in a while.

But what was the point? Couldn't God have just said "Hey, you humans can ask for forgiveness now, and you don't have to burn any helpless animals anymore, okay? I changed the rules."

And is Jesus supposed to have a free will separate from God's? I thought he was God...in any case, if he's omniscient, he can't possibly change his mind about whether he wants to be sacrificed or not since he already knows what the big eternal divine plan is.

[wayoftheleaf]

that's the problem i have with the bible.

omniscience. If god knew everything that was going to happen before he even created us, what the fuck was the point?

what the fuck was the point of us even being created? if he knew what we were going to do before we did it, it can be called free will what we are doing, but he already knows. why in the hell would he try to lead us all to the right path if he ALREADY fucking knows who will be going to heaven and who to hell

[cannabis=freedom]

that's the problem i have with the bible.

omniscience. If god knew everything that was going to happen before he even created us, what the fuck was the point?

what the fuck was the point of us even being created? if he knew what we were going to do before we did it, it can be called free will what we are doing, but he already knows. why in the hell would he try to lead us all to the right path if he ALREADY fucking knows who will be going to heaven and who to hell

I know, eh? Why create a bunch of imperfect beings who are going to "sin?"

I just don't understand the concept of pleasure being a sin. I here encourage people to masturbate and have all the fun sex with whoever you want as long as no one's feelings get hurt.

Christianity is a dangerous, authoritative, medieval cult that should have been eliminated in the Age of Reason. In the Middle Ages it was used as a means of controlling people and getting their money, and keeping them in line by putting the fear of God into them. Bibles were also in Latin, and no one could read them other than the clergy, who no doubt revised the Bible over the years to suit their own personal, greedy interests and to further the hatred of non-believers which is what the Bible is all about.

[Kid Dynamite]

In the Middle Ages it was used as a means of controlling people and getting their money, and keeping them in line by putting the fear of God into them

My friend, religion is still used for that in this day and age. Religion offers an afterlife, and as long as human beings fear death some will take that offer. However i think you have to make the distinction between religion and the church. The church uses religion to get away with wrongdoing, but that is a problem with the church, not religion itself.

to further the hatred of non-believers which is what the Bible is all about

Your entitled to your opinion, but i have to say i think you have a very misguided view of the Bible.

[jsn9333]

Also, I find it very sad that you think you love your gay family members, but also think they deserve to be eternally tortured.

I don't believe that they deserve to be eternally tortured. Some Christians believe Hell will come to the end, and that those in it will cease to exist. I tend toward that belief. I believe God will punish them and, unless they have faith in Christ which leads them to follow His commandments, they will not have eternal life. They will suffer punishment in hell, and then cease to exist... what I refer to as eternal death. I can see why some people think hell will last for an eternity, but there are verses in which "forever" simply means for a lifetime. For instance, Duet. chapter 15 says, "He shall be your servant forever," of a servant who simply would serve you for the rest of his life. But if you want to argue whether or not hell is eternal or not, it would probably be best to start another thread.

So while you may not understand it, the fact is, love is my motivation. I love them very deeply, and want them to spend eternity with me. I also want them to have a deeply satisfying life here on earth. God's commands, while they may seem "overly restrictive" at first, always have our best interest in mind in the long run.

If someone refuses to love God and God's ways, then I think God is fair in punishing them and removing them from his presence. He created them after all! How could anyone say that is not fair? It would be ridiculous. And they wouldn't be happy with God anyway, since they hate His ways. So why should he make them suffer with Him and His ways?

Being a Christian does not require me to "hate" anyone. In fact, it has the opposite effect... I find myself thinking of ways to love others more and more. That is the example Christ set before me.

But did Jesus not say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)?

When Jesus himself says that not one jot or one tittle of Mosaic law can be changed, what justification do Christians have for rejecting the Old Testament laws... If you believe the Old Testament (which includes the Ten Commandments alongside those other, more barbaric laws) to be the word of an omniscient God, then that word ought to be eternally true....

Christ did say all those things you quoted. And the Mosaic law hasn't changed. It is still there for us to study and learn from. But it is not "practiced" any longer. There is a difference.

The disciples did not practice it fully. Jesus himself did not practice it fully when he forgave the prostitute and stopped all the men from stoning her. The question isn't what justification do Christians have for not practicing the Old Testament... it is what justification did Christ and the Apostles have for not practicing the Old Testament.

The Christian Scriptures teach us that the Old Testament's purpose was to show how unable we are to keep God's laws and how serious the trouble is that we are in (even if we don't think it is serious or don't agree with it). And if I read it right, we (including me) are in some pretty deep shit... because I think half of the book is fucking nuts!

The New Testament's purpose is to display the grace and love of God. It has God sending His only Son, Christ, to take our punishment for us, and to teach us to treat each other with the same grace and love He has shown to us. Just like God provided a temporary sacrifice for Abraham in the Old Testament (in that case a lamb), He provided the permanent sacrifice for us in the New Testament (the Lamb of God, Jesus). That is what Christ means when he says He came to "fulfill" the Old Testament.

That doesn't mean all the morals of God are thrown out. There are plenty of morals repeated in the New Testament that we have to follow (including most if not all of the 10 commandments). But my point is that some of those New Testament morals (I've cited them earlier in the thread) directly teach us to *not* yell disrespectful, angry, unkind, rough, and painful words at anyone. To say Christianity lends support to what the Westboro nutjobs are doing is just not true. It just isn't. That might be true of Old Testament Judaism... but Christianity is not Judaism. That after all is why the Jews had Christ slaughtered.

If God wants to forgive us, can't he just forgive us? What's with the bloody spectacle of sacrificing himself in a human body? I just don't get it.

To be honest with you, I don't get it entirely either. After studying the Bible for years, I believe the terrible price he paid serves as an example to us as to how terrible sin is and how hard we should strive to avoid it. God's justice demands that sin be punished. Christ's taking our place for us shows the mercy of God and serves as an example of how we should then be willing to put other's needs above our own.

There will always be questions I have about why God does things this way or that way. I'm not God, so I just don't have all the answers. But He does. I know that sounds cheesy, but after years of trying to practice what Christianity teaches all I know is that I have seen God do amazing things in my life. I have learned to love people in ways I never knew I could. I have seen Him change me in ways I didn't think possible, even though He promised me He would. After I trusted Him, life has been so good that I've never looked back. Not even once.