Anyone into wych craft then?

[mrdevious]

So, where's the evidence that witchcraft has ever actually done anything? If it really works, it should be pretty easy to do produce an experiment that will totally floor the scientific community and force them to accept the existence of these supernatural powers. Scientists are always willing to be convinced by good evidence, so long as the methodology is sound and the results can be replicated, so let's see it and revolutionize our understanding of the basic forces at work in the universe. Give me an experiment that I can do to prove to myself that this stuff is real.

Close your eyes and believe Oneironaut. But you can't just think it, you have to BELIEVE! Believe believe beliiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve..... and then it all comes true. Albeit I'm a bit perplexed as to why supernatural phemomenon tend to be dependant on someone believing so hard that they wouldn't see contrary evidence if it smacked them in the face...



But, this thread isn't just about whether or not we believe in witch craft (it is witch craft we're talking about right?). I think it's a really fascinating subject, one that modern society isn't raised on and therefor isn't intimately familiar with. I absolutely love the practices of pagan, extinct-faith's, tribal, or just general shamanic traditions that don't hold to mass monotheistic dogma. There's an incredible wealth of information from so many traditions long extinct or isolated in small areas, I wish the general populace was more knowledgeable about them. Heck, I wish I was more knowledgeable about them!

[akasaviour]

chek this out YouTube - Mind Body & Kickass Moves - Kiai

[Staurm]

If your saying your blind, I read in an astral projection book that people that once had vision before becoming blind can see while out of body. People blind for thier entire life say they can sence everything around them like radar (like daredevil).

Not got time to digest recent comments yet, but just to say I was met with a woman walking her two dogs, and one of them came towards me, and since I like dogs a lot I put my hand out to pet it and it flinched away as they normally do at first. Turned out the dog was blind and centred in on me using I'm guessing sound and smell. Just thought I'd mention that I thought it was well cool.

[Polymirize]

Magic has yet to hold up to the scientific method. Science does. Of course, that's kinda self-reflexive, and science certainly doesn't hold up to the magical method. But everyone knows science is objective. Everyone knows that...

Actually, I really liked Storm Crow's post. I don't practice witchcraft so I don't want to belittle any beliefs but, it seems that the entire purpose of any ritual, whether it be white magic, shamanic trance, or buddhist chanting, is to change the subjective state of mind/perspective of the individual undergoing the ritual. Changing the world by changing the way we see it, and selecting new possibilities for being. Largely psychological, yes, but illusionary? Not at all.

[Staurm]

Not all science is objective, only the objective stuff.

It sorta depends on what you define an illusion as. Scientifically it is something that is not ACTUALLY what it is REALLY. For example, pretty much everything (I imagine) according to contemporary physics anyway.

[Staurm]

So, where's the evidence that witchcraft has ever actually done anything? If it really works, it should be pretty easy to do produce an experiment that will totally floor the scientific community and force them to accept the existence of these supernatural powers. Scientists are always willing to be convinced by good evidence, so long as the methodology is sound and the results can be replicated, so let's see it and revolutionize our understanding of the basic forces at work in the universe. Give me an experiment that I can do to prove to myself that this stuff is real.

What has science forced us to accept the existence of that wasn't there in the first place?

Abstract models, mathematics (although arguably that WAS there in the first place), atoms, particles, waves, photons, viruses, strings, dimensions, time dilation, spatial contraction, 3 dimensional probability density functions, black holes, galaxies, dark matter, light.

Talk about that shit to anyone three hundred years ago and they'd think your mad, make it a thousand years and they'd probably burn you alive!

Science is full of paradoxes, and strange curiosities that are less comprehendable than spirits and witches.

Deny it, or get into it and appreciate it for the true wonder it is, It! being, life.

[Staurm]

it's a really fascinating subject, one that modern society isn't raised on and therefor isn't intimately familiar with. I absolutely love the practices of pagan, extinct-faith's, tribal, or just general shamanic traditions that don't hold to mass monotheistic dogma. There's an incredible wealth of information from so many traditions long extinct or isolated in small areas, I wish the general populace was more knowledgeable about them. Heck, I wish I was more knowledgeable about them!

What I found most interesting about so far, 4 pages into The Way of Wyrd, where it reincarnates a tribal exorcism of a woman who has a physical ailment. It is as though the shaman is driving the evil spirit out of her, by force. This bears some similarity with the prevailing medicinal paradigm which views illness as the "invader" and the immune system as a defence mechanism. Perhaps various writers have reinterpreted the original meaning. Maybe its also a valid metaphor to use to explain and cure/relieve illness?

There seems to be nearly as many ways of looking at things as there are things!

I just feel that that was undermining the value of this semi-historical account. Nonetheless the shaman way seems to be peaceful, and offering lots of great isomorphisms with current holistic medicine. It ALL makes so much fucking sense when you look at all the different ways of dealing with life and death.

[darth stoner]

Abstract models, mathematics (although arguably that WAS there in the first place), atoms, particles, waves, photons, viruses, strings, dimensions, time dilation, spatial contraction, 3 dimensional probability density functions, black holes, galaxies, dark matter, light.

Atoms are observable.
Atoms are particles, therefore "particles" are observable.
Waves are observable.
Photos are observable.
Viruses are observable.
String theory is a theory.
Dimensions are observable (at least the 3 we're able to discern, plus time if you count it as a dimension)
Time dilation is observable and confirmed
Black holes can be inferred to exist. Just because we can't see them (by definition, since they also trap light), doesn't mean they exist. Like air, we can't see it yet we breathe, and it's measurable.
Dark matter is a theory but there is very strong evidence it exists.
Light is observable

I'm not sure what your point was tho..

[Nightcrewman]

If you want to know the truth about witches I suggest reading Wyrd Sisters, Witches Abroad and Equal Rites by Terry Pratchett.

Cheers
NCM

[Staurm]

Atoms are observable.

I've never seen one, only pictorial representations of what we think they would look like if we could see them with our own eyes. Have you?

Atoms are particles, therefore "particles" are observable.

Actually atoms are collections of particles, clustered together via the weak and strong nuclear forces.

Waves are observable.

Rolling waves coming in from the sea, perhaps, but quantum waves? I don't think so, detectable, inferrable, yes, observable? Probably yes, arguably, but when the "observation" eventually becomes an abstract though in your mind, or on paper, does it then bear any actual similatory to what you were initially inspecting? Is it really matter?

Photos are observable.

Photons are part of the process of observing, not the observable. But yes, deliberate ambiguity aside, they are also detectable and measurable physical quantities.

Viruses are observable.

Yes, but are they attacking us like the scientists are teliing us? Or is that we are simply failing to integrate them into our structure?

String theory is a theory.

A theory with no less than 5 distinct, independent, inconsolable mathematical models to describe it, and a theory which was "conjured" up to explain away all the irregularites in fundamental particle physics.

Dimensions are observable (at least the 3 we're able to discern, plus time if you count it as a dimension)

We wouldn't be able to observe WITHIN the other 3 if time didn't exist.

Time dilation is observable and confirmed

Truuue..

Black holes can be inferred to exist. Just because we can't see them (by definition, since they also trap light), doesn't mean they exist. Like air, we can't see it yet we breathe, and it's measurable.

Did you know that the word "spirit" comes from the latin "spiritus" which means "breath"?

Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dark matter is a theory but there is very strong evidence it exists.
Light is observable

I'm not sure what your point was tho..

My point is science infers or measures the existence of something, you can argue this is a valid form of observation, but it does not constitutes proof of existence, certainly not where the quantum world is concerned. These concepts would be totally alien to an ancient tribal civilisation, just as their view of the universe might seem completely absurd to us.

Knowledge is subjective. It only has meaning within the context of a paradigm.