How much further can you pull back?

[darth stoner]

On one condtion. You have to give me a definition of beauty that isn't intangible, and then prove to me that something is beautiful using that definition.

Can you prove to me that beauty even exists in this world?

Beauty is a concept. Stop trying to play word games to justify your points, please.

darth stoner Reviewed by darth stoner on 05-10-2007. How much further can you pull back? First God was in the sky. We explored the sky and learned what was really up there. Then God was in space, beyond the sky. We explored space and learned what was really out there. Now God is in another dimension? Come one. When we're able to explore other dimensions, where will your God run to hide from science? In other news, here's a fun video: YouTube - Rational Response Squad takes on Christians on ABC Rating: 5

[afghooey]

Beauty isn't just a concept, it's also an experience.

Likewise, you can look at god as a concept, or as an experience. But I can only explain to you my concept of god. The experience is something that no one can give to you.

[darth stoner]

By all means, do explain. You mentioned you don't believe in the judeo-christian god but you also mentioned jesus, I must admit I am a bit confused.

I think I understand where you're going, and even if I believe there's no god, I wouldn't deny that god (the concept) makes some people's life meaningful and believing there is a god makes them feel good and full of energy. Is this what you're attempting to explain ?

[afghooey]

That's not really what I meant, as that would imply that I'm saying that god's existence is limited only to a concept.

My point is that certain things (like beauty, as one of many examples) aren't tangible enough to where we can find an object and slap a label on it and say "There, that's beauty." Beauty isn't something a person discovers. One can see beauty in just about everything if one has the right mindset, because beauty is something that we create whenever we percieve something as beautiful. Just because we create beauty doesn't mean that it isn't real. Just because it's less tangible and can't be adapted to language doesn't mean that it's any less significant.

In the same way, when you experience divinity, it's not something that you can put down in words or explain to others, quite simply because it's something you have to participate in to understand. I could explain trying to ride a bicycle for hours, but you won't fully understand until you ride it yourself. Likewise, I could go on trying to explain God until I don't have a breath left in my body to do so, but until you experience divinity for yourself my words will be as empty to you as symbols with no meaning behind them.

[Divadish]

Each and every one of us are our own god ,the sights , sounds , smells everything we perceive and experience through conciousness is done so at an individual level .We are all in charge of our own destinies , sure society shapes the decisions we make and the paths we take , but everything (and i mean everything ) we say and do, are thought and acted upon personally.Of course our actions and words have a direct bearing on everything and everyone around us to a greater or lesser extent and these actions and words can alter the parameters within which freedom of thought , speech and movement can operate mmm i am quite stoned at the moment and am starting to lose track ,but what i am trying to say is that YOU are god in your own world no one else, you have the final say on your own existence how much more god like can one be . One more point, which is one that as puzzled me since i was very young is this , with the existence ( for want of better words ) of so many different religions ( some pre-dating christianity ) and followers of each of these religions believing theirs to be the one true god,does this not by definition cast immense doubt over the authenticity of all religious movements ?.Anyway i'm well stoned now and can't be arsed to roll another so it's bedybybootime ,i'll probably look at this tomorrow and think wtf was i on aboutl but as well known Irish atheist comedian used to say goodnight and may your god go with you lol

[darth stoner]

That's not really what I meant, as that would imply that I'm saying that god's existence is limited only to a concept.

My point is that certain things (like beauty, as one of many examples) aren't tangible enough to where we can find an object and slap a label on it and say "There, that's beauty." Beauty isn't something a person discovers. One can see beauty in just about everything if one has the right mindset, because beauty is something that we create whenever we percieve something as beautiful. Just because we create beauty doesn't mean that it isn't real. Just because it's less tangible and can't be adapted to language doesn't mean that it's any less significant.

In the same way, when you experience divinity, it's not something that you can put down in words or explain to others, quite simply because it's something you have to participate in to understand. I could explain trying to ride a bicycle for hours, but you won't fully understand until you ride it yourself. Likewise, I could go on trying to explain God until I don't have a breath left in my body to do so, but until you experience divinity for yourself my words will be as empty to you as symbols with no meaning behind them.

I can see your point, but it's just like motivating yourself to do something.. it's what you think about it that matters, and if you deeply believe in something, then your mind will trick you into viewing that as real. If you don't believe or have confidence in what you're doing, then the simple fact that you thought about it will change the outcome. This is a documented thing, and it's in part self deception, true believer syndrome, and wishful thinking.

That is why I don't deny that people can experience "divine" experiences, bursts of strength or motivation to do something after a prayer -- if you believe the outcome of a prayer to be positive, then it will very likely be (within the bounds of the reasonable, of course). For this very reason I don't deny that people can feel good about their religion, but if you think about it deeply, it's coming from your own mind.. and I know it might be hard to reach that deep, as for instance I couldn't see stuff that I can clearly see after I quit smoking (tobacco). I was in denial and throwing away things that I knew were relevant and labelling them irrelevant.

The thought process isn't perfect, and as you may know there are several known biases.. to get to the bottom of it you need to recognize our thinking isn't perfect and teach yourself to detect and correct your own thinking when you notice it happening.

If you clear your mind of all preconceptions you have of religion, and from a purely logical and reasonable point you think about the issue, you'll arrive at the only possible answer: god most likely doesn't exist (nobody can't say it doesn't exist for sure, purely for the same reason as we can't say the tooth fairy really doesn't exist, it's just highly unlikely she does..).

To what extend your mind will block out your thought process to prevent you from going into a fuse because of the radical change, I couldn't know. I have experienced it with cigarettes, but religion is something that is indocrinated in us from a very early age (I was religious until I was 12 or something, simply because my parents were catholics too and I didn't know any better), and it must be hard to shake off.

[afghooey]

If you clear your mind of all preconceptions you have of religion, and from a purely logical and reasonable point you think about the issue, you'll arrive at the only possible answer: god most likely doesn't exist (nobody can't say it doesn't exist for sure, purely for the same reason as we can't say the tooth fairy really doesn't exist, it's just highly unlikely she does..).

Actually, from a purely logical and reasonable point, I still see more evidence of god's existence than non-existence.

The thing is, what you might define as evidence completely depends on your definition of god. If I was to set out on the daunting task of trying to prove the judeo-christian god of the old testament real, I would be hard pressed to find reasonable evidence of his existence beyond some millenia-old scriptures.

The biggest piece of evidence that I can think of in support of the existence of God (at least, as relating to my personal understanding of God) is intelligence. Here is one thing that I don't need to prove to anyone; intelligence exists, and we ourselves are living, breathing and thinking proof of it. All that's left to speculate is where the boundaries between 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' lie or whether boundaries even exist at all, which is quite debatable depending on your definition of intelligence.

That said, it seems incredibly illogical to me that we, as intelligent beings, are somehow an expression of an unintelligent universe. How exactly can something that is conscious and alive come to exist from something unconscious and inanimate? It just doesn't make a mote of sense to me.

Some people will attribute this to god; that is, to an external force that brought intelligence into existence among non-intelligence. Personally, I think it makes more sense that the boundaries between intelligence and non-intelligence are illusions that we have created, and that in truth the universe is a lot more intelligent than we give it credit for.

[darth stoner]

Actually, from a purely logical and reasonable point, I still see more evidence of god's existence than non-existence.

The thing is, what you might define as evidence completely depends on your definition of god. If I was to set out on the daunting task of trying to prove the judeo-christian god of the old testament real, I would be hard pressed to find reasonable evidence of his existence beyond some millenia-old scriptures.

The biggest piece of evidence that I can think of in support of the existence of God (at least, as relating to my personal understanding of God) is intelligence. Here is one thing that I don't need to prove to anyone; intelligence exists, and we ourselves are living, breathing and thinking proof of it. All that's left to speculate is where the boundaries between 'intelligent' and 'non-intelligent' lie or whether boundaries even exist at all, which is quite debatable depending on your definition of intelligence.

That said, it seems incredibly illogical to me that we, as intelligent beings, are somehow an expression of an unintelligent universe. How exactly can something that is conscious and alive come to exist from something unconscious and inanimate? It just doesn't make a mote of sense to me.

Some people will attribute this to god; that is, to an external force that brought intelligence into existence among non-intelligence. Personally, I think it makes more sense that the boundaries between intelligence and non-intelligence are illusions that we have created, and that in truth the universe is a lot more intelligent than we give it credit for.

I would be inclined to think your definition of 'God' would match Einstein's God ("god" is the universe/nature itself and all the processes within, I agree with this definition altough I'd rather not call it "god"). If this is so, then I completely agree with you especially with your last paragraph, when you say the universe might be a lot more intelligent than what we think. Given that we are limited by our knowledge and locality (we only know a very tiny fraction of this universe - yet), what might look like chaotic and random events (galaxies merging, stars exploding etc) could be part of something bigger, something that we can't grasp because we only have a small set of the pieces in the big puzzle. That is a reasonable statement to make. Now, an uber-powerful creature who knows everything you think and will condemn you to eternal damnation if you don't believe in him, that is pure nonsense.

[PureEvil760]

It is not God that is hiding from science, it is science that is hiding from God.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

dude, that sentence stumped both me and my wife (who both have a relatively good understading of english and being able to translate shit no one else coudl lol... )

if it has no mind, it has neither matter nor energy.



in other words, it cannot exist if it cannot think.


rocks would not exist if they had no thoughts.

the entire whole of everything that is included within the concept of infinity requires mind in order to exist.


to exist physically, it requires consciousness.


to exist mentally, we need only think about it.


the more a concept is thought about, the more energy is given to it, the sooner it will become a conscious concept, and able to manifest physically.




this is the way i see reality, is a singular, infinite mind.

everything that exists is thought.

first, it must be thought of, then it must be a conceived idea, a thought that has been worked on enough to give it form and concept.

then it must be given more thought in order for it to gain consciousness, where after it can become real.


physics are an elaborate organization of individual minds working together.

the mind of gravity, the mind of heat, the mind of light, the mind of magnetism.... many many minds working as one.


if it exists, it has mind. if it's physical, it has consciousness.