How much further can you pull back?

[delusionsofNORMALity]

....always considered to exist just beyond what we can see.

some gods have lived on mountain tops or under the seas. some gods have been invisible and others have purposely hidden themselves from their followers, but all gods have always been just out of reach. a rational man might be forced to conclude that such unseen creatures do not exist. a logical mind might come to the conclusion that it is more likely that the god concept is a primitive response to our fear of the unknown.


:beatdeadhorse:

[darth stoner]

For the most part though, there seem to be vast numbers of believers who in recognizing that god is outside of human comprehension, actually end up believing some cool things and functioning amazingly well for society.

That's where it got after being confronted with the fact that there is no evidence to support god. Look at intelligent design for instance, it's the extreme case that shows how far religious people go to keep their fantasy real. For some people, the last barrier of defense is saying "it's outside our comprehension" (thus killing any chance of keeping a logical conversation up -- see Denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

There will always be something we don't know, something more to learn. There will always be something happening outside of that narrow spectrum of existence that you recognise as reality.

Completely agree. But, how does that support the god myth ? We didn't know why the sun rises just a few centuries ago. Does that mean there was a guy pulling it up and down until we found out why ?

[afghooey]

Sometimes people come up with absurd definitions like "God is love" or "God is consciousness". No, love is love and consciousness is consciousness. Love and consciousness did not create the universe. There is no sense praying to love or consciousness. There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural. These things are not gods. They are emergent phenomena of complex nervous systems, and using the word "God" for them is just plain misleading.

I find it rather absurd that you limit your definition of god to the 'supernatural', then argue that God doesn't exist because your definition says he/she/it doesn't.

And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)

[darth stoner]

afghooey, now try to prove your point without refering back to the bible.

The big problem with doing that is that you're using a cyclical reference when you attempt to prove your point by quoting the bible.

You fail to realize that the bible contents holds no truth value to us.

As an example, imagine me saying Zeus is real and asking you how could you ever doubt it, and the single piece of evidence I'd give you to support my point of view is ancient greek mythology. You wouldn't be convinced, would you ? Yet, if I assumed the contents of their mythology to be true, then there would be no way you could possibly disprove me.

Nonbelievers do not need to prove anything, as there is not a single shred of evidence in support of the judeo-christian god (therefore, the "default" state is: there is no god). If you believe such an entity exists, then by all means prove it to us, without refering back to the bible and any of the literature there. And please don't try miracles.

[RamblerGambler]

The J man's influence on the world is undeniable, regardless of who his father was. He appears to have preached a message of tolerance that extends far beyond what we today know as offical church teaching. It's ashame the Catholic Church chose to limit the extent of his message, selecting the books they felt best illustrated their views and doing their best to destroy the rest.

Sometimes I wonder if Jesus would would view today's Bible in the same light as a Dan Brown novel, 5-10% truth and a LOT of filler. Needless to say, the "truth" would be his message of compasion.

[afghooey]

afghooey, now try to prove your point without refering back to the bible.

The big problem with doing that is that you're using a cyclical reference when you attempt to prove your point by quoting the bible.

You fail to realize that the bible contents holds no truth value to us.

As an example, imagine me saying Zeus is real and asking you how could you ever doubt it, and the single piece of evidence I'd give you to support my point of view is ancient greek mythology. You wouldn't be convinced, would you ? Yet, if I assumed the contents of their mythology to be true, then there would be no way you could possibly disprove me.

Nonbelievers do not need to prove anything, as there is not a single shred of evidence in support of the judeo-christian god (therefore, the "default" state is: there is no god). If you believe such an entity exists, then by all means prove it to us, without refering back to the bible and any of the literature there. And please don't try miracles.

I think you may have misinterpreted me here, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.

Firstly, I wasn't trying to 'prove my point' by quoting the bible, I was merely using it as an illustration to my point. Secondly, though yes I was trying to make a point, I'm not out to prove anything to you.

Thirdly, my entire point in the first place was that you can't rely on anyone's definition of God except your own. That includes mine (which doesn't happen to be that of the classic judeo-christian god anyway).

[Oneironaut]

I find it rather absurd that you limit your definition of god to the 'supernatural', then argue that God doesn't exist because your definition says he/she/it doesn't.

Okay, fine. Give me a definition of God that isn't supernatural, and prove it exists, and give me a good reason to call it "God".

And anyway, even Jesus knew that god wasn't up in the sky somewhere:
"If those who lead you say, "Behold!..the kingdom of god is in the skies," then the birds will precede you. If they say that it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you. Rather, it is within you, and it is outside you." (The Gospel of Thomas)

The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?

I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.

[blunt roller]

why do people think that because u believe in god u dont believe in science.
and why do they think everyone that believes in god takes the bible literaly.
Atheist and non-believers are just as close minded as the person who thinks the bible are gods exact words

"There is nothing about love or consciousness which is supernatural"

actually consciousness is very super natural. tests have been done with random number generators(using 1's and 0's) and the results show that a conscious being can influence the ratio of 1's and 0's. other tests show that a conscious being can change the ph of pure water one whole unit. and by conscious beings i mean people who have achieved higher states of awareness. this is just a very small tip of the iceberg, i could sit here for months trying to explain it all.

if you want to find out more about this topic the movie and book "what the bleep do we know" is a very good start.

[afghooey]

Okay, fine. Give me a definition of God that isn't supernatural, and prove it exists, and give me a good reason to call it "God".

On one condtion. You have to give me a definition of beauty that isn't intangible, and then prove to me that something is beautiful using that definition.

Can you prove to me that beauty even exists in this world?

The Jesus myth is loaded with allusions to the idea that God is "in the sky" somewhere. What the heck was that whole Ascension thing about then? Jesus taking a trip to the Moon to chill for 3 days?

I think Jesus means to say here that God's powers extend over everything, not just his heavenly realm.

Interpret it how you like, but I think that the whole 'ascension' thing was probably just a holdover from outdated old-testament beliefs, many of which Jesus was obviously opposed to and actually spoke out against. But that's my opinion. :stoned:

[darth stoner]

why do people think that because u believe in god u dont believe in science.

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apply it to religion. Religion fails. Therefore, either you're delusional or you're in denial, or you don't believe in science. Don't do to science what you do with the bible (note: I'm using "you" generically", not "talking" or attacking you) -- cherrypick it to choose what you like and you don't like.