another intelligent 9-11 debate

[Zimzum]

Now how about a link to where all those quotes came from? That didn't come from NIST like that. Someone wrote that up with references, and I already found one slight error in it as there quote does not match the quote of the NIST report.

Zimzum Reviewed by Zimzum on 03-20-2007. another intelligent 9-11 debate since the info in the last thread hit so close to home that instead of locking the thread, it had to be deleted, can not let the truth air out for too long. i will be complete in my research here, done MOSTLY with the us governments OWN reports. let us start with understanding what a "theory" is. so in other words, for the government's theory of how the wtc buildings failed, it has to have happened before or be able to be tested and acheive the same results. Rating: 5

[VisionaryUrbanTactic]

Now how about a link to where all those quotes came from? That didn't come from NIST like that. Someone wrote that up with references, and I already found one slight error in it as there quote does not match the quote of the NIST report.

Dead On Arrival


please report the quote in error, i'd like to see it.

[VisionaryUrbanTactic]

btw, of course nist did not write it, if it had, the wording would not of put nist in a thrid person role(i.e. the nist, the nist report,etc)

as to the steel beams, the tests they did and the fact that they dont have any metal that got hot enough to give way, is telling in itself.

so not only is the government's theory really just a guess, it's a guess with no backing what so ever.




i mean when it boils down to it, you support a story that plays out like this....

me: so the world trade center collapse due to the heat buckling the columns

nist: thats correct

me: but in your report, you state that none of the metal you tested got hot enough

nist: thats correct

me: i dont seem to find any mention in your(or the 9-11 commission or the fema report) report of the fire men that made it to the area of impact in wtc2

nist: thats correct, it would not of fit in with our raging inferno that weakend the steel theory

me: as we all know, now and before 9-11, there are always people that distrust the government, yet you failed to test for any explosives on the metal, after several (close to 500) witnesses heard them. firefighters,ems personal,etc.

nist: that is correct


me: there are pictures and reports of molten steel from weeks after 9-11, what would you say that could generate enough energy to melt steel weeks after, like that?

most experts would agree that there was nothing under that pile of rubble to keep it that hot for that long.

nist: um.......




get real dude, i mean common sense alone wins this case for me.


like for example

the government saying these guys went out the night before and was drinking with hookers and shit, left his card in the bar.

Before September 11, 2001: Hijackers Drink, Watch Strip Shows on Eve of AttacksA number of the hijackers apparently drink alcohol heavily in bars and watch strip shows. On September 10, three of them spend $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks in the Pink Pony, a Daytona Beach, Florida strip club. While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club, and these men appear to have had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks. [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001] Marwan Alshehhi and Mohamed Atta are seen entering the Hollywood, Florida, sports bar Shuckums already drunk. They proceed to drink even more hard alcohol there (see September 7, 2001). Atta and Alshehhi are seen at Sunrise 251, a bar in Palm Beach, Florida. They spend $1,000 in 45 minutes on Krug and Perrier-Jouet champagne. Atta is with a tall busty brunette in her late twenties; Alshehhi is with a shortish blonde. Both women are known locally as regular companions of high-rollers. [Daily Mail, 9/16/2001] A stripper at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret in Las Vegas, Nevada, recalls Marwan Alshehhi being “cheap,” paying only $20 for a lap dance. [Cox News Service, 10/16/2001] Several hijackers reportedly patronize the Nardone’s Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, New Jersey. They are even seen there on the weekend before 9/11. [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001; Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001] Majed Moqed visits a porn shop on three occasions, and rents a porn video. The mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, says of the six hijackers who stayed there: “Nobody ever saw them at mosques, but they liked the go-go clubs.” [Newsday, 9/23/2001; Newsweek, 10/15/2001] Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar often frequented Cheetah’s, a nude bar in San Diego. [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/2002] Hamza Alghamdi watched a porn video on September 10. [Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001] University of Florida religion professor Richard Foltz states, “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/16/2001]

as you can see, the quotes are refrenced right there for you.


how about those id's turning up in perfect condition after there were raging inferno's?

Articles, government corruption, freedom of speech, truth

One year after 9/11, as unbelievable as it sounds, the parents of a Flight 11 passenger were notified by the Ground Zero Recovery Team that they found the unscathed Wells Fargo ATM card of their son who allegedly perished on the doomed flight.



After being notified of the miraculous find on Sept. 11, 2002, Joseph and Samia Iskandar were sent their son’s bank card within days, noting it was in “perfect condition,” but asking the obvious question: “How could a plastic card survive the fire of the terrorist attack of the Black Tuesday on the USA?”



The question about the strange return of their son’s bank card has been placed on a web site memorial, remembering their 34-year-old son, Waleed, a Harvard MBA graduate listed as one of the passengers that perished when Flight 11 allegedly smashed into the North Tower.



The Iskandar’s were unavailable for comment after numerous calls were not answered, but receipt of the card was verified by another close family member, as well as a photographic duplicate of the ATM card also being placed on the Iskandar web site, proving its existence and return in almost perfect condition.

what about the fact that most of the plane in the pentagon burned up, but yet, they find like 95% of the victims dna?

The lack of evidence that a Boeing 757 had crashed into the Pentagon is only surpassed by the incredulous nature of the DNA fable.

Here are some of the many inconsistencies:

The government story line alleges that the heat was so intense that the fuselage and engines of the plane vaporized, this is how the Pentagon explained away the nearly total lack of aircraft debris in the photos. Whatever wasn’t “pulverized” on impact, melted away in the ensuing fire — so went the official story.

The melting point of aluminum is around 1,700 degrees F. The heat that was generated in the Pentagon fire supposedly was well above this, since they claimed that the aluminum vaporized! That happens at 11,000 degrees F!!![i]

DNA is an organic molecule that is very fragile, easily destroyed by temperatures at just a few hundred degrees C. It doesn’t need to be vaporized it can be destroyed by just being close to heat!
Analysis was done at Dover AFB from tissue samples that were collected for DNA identification.[ii]

Shrouded in secrecy, the government assembled a team of their own experts. The group assembled, as the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), claimed to have identified the human remains of all but one of the passengers on Flight 77. In other words, 99% of the remains of the people onboard were identified.

The only passenger unidentified on Flight 77 was a toddler. That passenger was Dana Falkenberg.[iii] [iv]

How is it possible that during a total vaporization of an airline, only one highly delicate DNA sample wasn’t degraded sufficiently enough to be recognized? How does human tissue survive when massive metal engines cannot? The government can’t have it both ways.

At the World Trade Center, the New York City Medical Examiner’s office only managed to identify about half of these people killed using DNA analysis. In aiding their efforts, many bodies were intact as scores of victims died due from the collapse of the building and not due to fire.

Despite the multiple violent blasts and terrible fire, of the Pentagon attack, authorities reported that they had identified 120 out of 124 Pentagon employees, which is a 97% success rate.[ii]

How do we explain a 50% rate of identification in New York, with a 97% identification rate at the Pentagon? [ii]

The AFIP team was working on the combined samples from both the Pentagon and Shanksville incidents.

There is no public evidence that definitively linked the bodies to the Pentagon crash site. DNA technicians would have no way of knowing where all the samples came from. That would be the job of army and FBI personnel that did the collecting.

Families of the airplanes’ passengers and crews and those who died within the Pentagon provided DNA samples.[iii]

All five hijackers were identified with DNA.[ii]

But, to make identification with DNA you need a sample to compare it to. How would the U.S. government get samples from hijackers’ families to make the comparisons?

If the hijackers were identified, then why does there names not appear on the autopsy list of those killed on Flight 77?

The government completely controlled the autopsy. Independent investigations were never allowed.

No single family member ever insisted on an independent DNA test to match the remains held by the government with that of their loved ones.

Lisa Raines’ family was notified that her remains were identified through her fingerprints. How is it possible that fingerprints could be taken after such a “pulverizing” crash and vaporizing fire? Is it possible that her fingers were so well preserved that her fingerprints could be taken? If fingerprint matching has a higher error rate than modern DNA testing, then why wouldn’t the Pentagon have used a simple and more accurate DNA test instead?

Flight 77 passenger, Suzanne Calley’s, wedding ring, and driver’s license turns up in perfect condition from Pentagon wreckage.

Capt. Jim Ingledue of the Virginia Beach Fire Department recently reported he found the completely unblemished California ID card amidst the devastation and rubble at the Pentagon.[v] Reasonable people would agree, that this is a bit ridiculous!

Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D., who made a recent Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request in order to “get to the bottom of what he calls a staged and phony government autopsy report… I undertook by FOIA request to get the autopsy list. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list.” See Appendix for official autopsy list.

The names on the airline passenger manifest and the names provided by the official Pentagon autopsy report showed that three names were on the autopsy list that were never passengers on Flight 77.

i mean this is just stupid, there should not even be a question.

it's tearing america apart, at the very least, i think we can all agree that an independent investigation needs to happen.

there is way to many holes, and way to many unanwsered questions.

[Krogith]

Don't forget there are videos of people standing IN the holes the Planes Made and are Waveing.

[Zimzum]

If I Was An Evil Genius... Refuting Conspiracy Theories via Motive

"11. Telephone Calls From the Planes Were Faked13

An Evil Genius would need no fake phone calls. The operations did not require any phone calls at all. If, for some reason, such calls were desirable, it would be a simple matter for the hijackers to order passengers to make such calls. The alternative, either using actors or electronic trickery to fake voices, is expensive and pointless, and brings a new technical element into the conspiracy. Like many other items here, anything that involves more people adds risk, and risk without reward would not be tolerated."

Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy

"Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon."

Conspiracy Culture: From Kennedy to The X-Files

"Particularly as evidenced by the popularity of a show like The X-Files, mainstream America became more than willing to embrace the idea that there is a cabal of men planning our futures, that we cannot trust institutions, that the enemy is closer than we were taught to believe."

9/11 survivor criticizes former lecturerâ??s conspiracy theories

â??The principle behind free speech is the pre-eminent one, [but] you have to put the whole context of the war into perspective,â?� he said.

â??No amount of mythological pixie dust spread by the Kevin Barretts of the world is going to change that,â?� he added.

9/11 Conspiracy Theorist Heads for the Tall Grass

"The second point is that this is a clear indication that the 9/11 skeptics movement is, as many of us have been saying for some time, simply another crank group with an agenda. Much as they pose as daring truth-tellers, defiers of hypocrisy, and rebels against a corrupt government, there we see them shaking hands with Williams and praising Hufschmidt. There's no way back from that point - once you dine with the Devil, you belong to him, and the 9/11 skeptics have dined long and well."

[jokeyjokejoke]

What if the US Goverment are behind the "Iside job Conspiracy" because they aint got a fucking clue what happend on 9/11 but still want to seem all powerful?

[VisionaryUrbanTactic]

If I Was An Evil Genius... Refuting Conspiracy Theories via Motive

"11. Telephone Calls From the Planes Were Faked13

An Evil Genius would need no fake phone calls. The operations did not require any phone calls at all. If, for some reason, such calls were desirable, it would be a simple matter for the hijackers to order passengers to make such calls. The alternative, either using actors or electronic trickery to fake voices, is expensive and pointless, and brings a new technical element into the conspiracy. Like many other items here, anything that involves more people adds risk, and risk without reward would not be tolerated."

Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy

"Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon."

Conspiracy Culture: From Kennedy to The X-Files

"Particularly as evidenced by the popularity of a show like The X-Files, mainstream America became more than willing to embrace the idea that there is a cabal of men planning our futures, that we cannot trust institutions, that the enemy is closer than we were taught to believe."

9/11 survivor criticizes former lecturerâ??s conspiracy theories

â??The principle behind free speech is the pre-eminent one, [but] you have to put the whole context of the war into perspective,â?� he said.

â??No amount of mythological pixie dust spread by the Kevin Barretts of the world is going to change that,â?� he added.

9/11 Conspiracy Theorist Heads for the Tall Grass

"The second point is that this is a clear indication that the 9/11 skeptics movement is, as many of us have been saying for some time, simply another crank group with an agenda. Much as they pose as daring truth-tellers, defiers of hypocrisy, and rebels against a corrupt government, there we see them shaking hands with Williams and praising Hufschmidt. There's no way back from that point - once you dine with the Devil, you belong to him, and the 9/11 skeptics have dined long and well."

so, lets see, you ignored every bit of evidence and questions i posed, and sent me links to a bunch of neo-con (we still dont have the anwsers from nist yet)websites and that is supposed to prove what?


this is very simply, it's a debate.

i bring up info(using government source's non the less), then YOU counter WHAT I JUST POSTED with government source's or other equally intelligent people, that dont depend on saying what the government wants in order to keep a roof over there head.


here, that might be a little hard for you, lets do it this way.



1. did any of the metal nist tested get hot enough to make the buildings collapse? (quote and link to nist report were they state this)

2. did they ever finish the report on wtc7, and what were the findings?

see how that works?

now go back and refute the evidence i laid out, or stumble into another thread where your lack of research and insight might be useful.

btw, have a great weekend

[Psycho4Bud]

now go back and refute the evidence i laid out, or stumble into another thread where your lack of research and insight might be useful.

btw, have a great weekend

Out of the over 4000 threads in politics I would venture that there is at least 500 on these issues. IF your evidence was so compelling, there would have been an official investigation by now. Christ, the dems even try to distance themselves from this garbage.

The opinions of Rosie O., Charlie S., and Alex J. aren't really considered the voices of sanity ya know.

Have a good one!:s4:

[VisionaryUrbanTactic]

Out of the over 4000 threads in politics I would venture that there is at least 500 on these issues. IF your evidence was so compelling, there would have been an official investigation by now. Christ, the dems even try to distance themselves from this garbage.

The opinions of Rosie O., Charlie S., and Alex J. aren't really considered the voices of sanity ya know.

Have a good one!:s4:

so in other words, you can not refute it either?

good job.:thumbsup:

[Psycho4Bud]

so in other words, you can not refute it either?

good job.:thumbsup:

LMAO! I fought that war in politics WAY before you were a member....I passed the torch over to Zimzum now.

Fact is I learned that someone could have an apple set in front of them and if they were impressionable enough, they could be convinced VERY easily that it was an orange. Well, you have fun with the oranges and best of luck to Zim.....he needs it!

Have a good one!:s4: