Feminism (male input welcomed)

I figured since this is the Women's Forum that a thread on Feminism is very appropriate. This IS NOT a male bashing thread (a lot of men assume feminism=anti-male, which is not true...well with radical feminism it pretty much is, but that's another story. lol)!! This thread can be about anything to do with feminism...men, feel free to ask questions about it and share your concerns with it if you have any...

Here are some questions to get this thread off the ground, boys- feel free to answer them too (men can be feminists too!):

Do any of you identify yourselves as being a feminist? If so, do you feel comfortable telling other people this?

What stereotypes do you feel feminists have? Do you feel these are negative or positive?

What does feminism mean to you?

What issues do you think are most important for feminists?

I suppose I will start.

I do identify myself as a feminist, but not long ago I was hesitant to claim this...mainly due to the negative stereotypes feminists seem to have. Neg. stereotypes are plentiful, we are all: lesbians, anti-male, hairy, masculine, and anti-family to name a few.

For me, feminism is all about equality for any disadvantaged group (women, ethnic minorities, sexual minorities, etc) by bringing knowledge to the general public on many of the injustices out there today. It's all about critical thinking, and identifying relationships that lead and/or maintain oppression.

I never liked the idea, people are people, I think feminism and machoism treat others unequal, same with race, Im not sure how explain it

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Originally Posted by Samwhore

I never liked the idea, people are people, I think feminism and machoism treat others unequal, same with race, Im not sure how explain it

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Agreed.

my girlfriend isnt necesarilly a feminist, but she is a strong believer in womans rights, as am i.

speaking from my own point of view, being a male and trying to contribute my own personal thought as much as allowed, you dont need to be an elitist to get your point across.

everyone is equal, should be treated equal, and thats the end of the road.

no one is better or worse.

but woman have been mistreated in the past and it needs to change.

^^^ Feminism killed chivalry. I hold the door for anyone thats reasonably close enough - male/female/dog etc etc, but its out of common courtesy.

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Originally Posted by Samwhore

I never liked the idea, people are people, I think feminism and machoism treat others unequal, same with race, Im not sure how explain it

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See, that's the misconception the public has with feminism. No feminist would admit to treating other people unequal, or discriminating against someone. BUT this DOES happen a lot, I will admit. For example, Western Feminists (ie white, middle class women) are often criticized for leaving out 'other' feminists, mainly those of color or of an alternative sexual preference. The goal of feminism (or what the goal should be) imo is to unite all disadvantaged people and work together for equality, and equal rights under the law. So yes, feminism sometimes does treat other unequal, but in general I definitely think it's a positive thing.

Also, just to make this clear, most feminist perspectives INCLUDE race, class, AND sex...feminism isn't just about women, it's also about visual minorities and people with low socioeconomic statuses.

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Originally Posted by dutch.lover

See, that's the misconception the public has with feminism. No feminist would admit to treating other people unequal, or discriminating against someone. BUT this DOES happen a lot, I will admit. For example, Western Feminists (ie white, middle class women) are often criticized for leaving out 'other' feminists, mainly those of color or of an alternative sexual preference. The goal of feminism (or what the goal should be) imo is to unite all disadvantaged people and work together for equality, and equal rights under the law. So yes, feminism sometimes does treat other unequal, but in general I definitely think it's a positive thing.

Also, just to make this clear, most feminist perspectives INCLUDE race, class, AND sex...feminism isn't just about women, it's also about visual minorities and people with low socioeconomic statuses.

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I acknowledge your statement, but a main reason why I dont like the idea is that we shouldnt need to be fighting for equal rights in the first place, and that these types of groups should not need to exist because we should all tolerate each others differences and not let them play a role in how we view people

:hippy:

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Originally Posted by rickytikki

the feminism ive encountered is were women want to be treated like men and they dont want guys holding doors for them and shit and its really annoying casue its just us trying to be nice because isnt that how guys are supposed to treat women , chivalrously (sp). so yea when girls act like that it pisses me off, but you might be talking about a different sort of feminism

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I hear this a lot from guys, and I can obviously see how frusterating this can be! Most women like chivalry, and most (well maybe not most, but a lot) women are feminists....but not all feminists are against chivalry...I hope that made sense. lol. I personally think chivalry is just an act to show respect for someone, I don't necessarily think it's specifically to please women. I personally try to be 'equal' to men in that respect, by not expecting men to open doors for me, for example. If they want to, that's fine, but I would never expect them to nor would I get offended if they wanted to do that for me.

The category of Radical Feminists (the generally anti-male ones) would most definitely have a problem with chivalry, because they would view it as men insinuating women are weak- therefore adding to their belief that it is specifically men who oppress women. This is the other common misconception: all feminists believe it is ONLY men to blame for their oppression. Not all feminists believe this...there are many, many multi-causal hypotheses pertaining to oppression out there, not just male-centered ones.

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Originally Posted by Samwhore

I acknowledge your statement, but a main reason why I dont like the idea is that we shouldnt need to be fighting for equal rights in the first place, and that these types of groups should not need to exist because we should all tolerate each others differences and not let them play a role in how we view people

:hippy:

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I totally agree with you except for one thing (which i will get to in a sec). I can see where you are coming from when you say we should tolerate everyone, etc...by having a group 'feminism' it by default creates an "us against them" situation. Since women are fighting oppression, they are obviously fighting against something, therefore there is an enemy. This is sort of a negative way to view it, but anyways...

What I disagree with is your statement "we shouldnt need to be fighting for equal rights in the first place." Of course we should! Try telling that to the native women on the streets, the lesbians who feel shunned from their religions or communities, the women who are only making 70cents on the male dollar...etc. If there wasn't a group to work towards improving life for all these disadvantaged groups, they would never get anywhere. If it weren't for feminists, we would still be men's property...we would still be unable to vote, and unable to own property (even as early as the 60s and 70s women were not able to take out a credit card without a male cosigner).

I also wanted to say something to the men...

I sympathize with the ways you are mistreated just as much as I sympathize with anyone else. I realize that men have it really hard in a few ways, such as: being passed over for jobs that are specifically looking for ethnic women (to diversify their employees...this is happening with our police forces), not having people understand that men suffer from as much spousal abuse as women do, getting tougher jail sentences than women for certain offenses (such as sexual harrassment), etc.

These kind of things ARE recognized in feminism...femism is a discussion on ALL KINDS of injustice out there.

True that. In my women's studies class we talk about problems like this, and their causes. I think those issues you brought up are related to the high standards of beauty our society has today. Aside from the medias direct role in that, women are actually largely to blame for those kinds of things as well.

For example, eating disorders are commonly passed down from mother to daughter. A young girl will grow up listening to her mother's negative comments about her weight, and will end up criticizing her own body as well.

Perhaps there is a male root to this all (bear with me here boys), but women are often the ones doing the reinforcement which is the most significant thing imo, because if we keep on reinforcing shit like this it will never stop. One of the biggest thing women need to realize, is their own role in this sort of thing. Women oppress women all the time, without even realizing it. We perpetuate stereotypes on a daily basis, and there is even a large occurrance of violence done to women, by women (very common in the lesbian community). Women can be racist, classist, sexist...all of which contribute to the general oppression many groups face. It's a very complex issue.

I supposed I'd consider myself a feminist, but I really much prefer the term "humanist" instead. I believe in equal rights for all people, not just women. Sure, I believe we need equal pay for equal work. I believe women are intelligent, equal beings. I believe we deserve every consideration other groups get. If that makes me a feminist, then so be it. I'm sorry the concept of feminism ever grew to have a negative connotation, and I strongly disapprove of it as an excuse for male-bashing. Men are wonderful, as are women.

While we're on the subject, I'm a big believer in both femininity and in chivalry. There are black-and-white thinkers out there who might think those concepts can't be compatible with feminism, but I know they can.

By the way, this is the first time I've ever--EVER--seen feminism compared to masochism. That's absurd.

*machoism

I thought she mean masochism! I was reading too fast.

OK, not so absurd. I think I'm the one who qualifies as abusrd now!!

"Machoism" is a new one to me. I've always heard of "machismo," but not "machoism." Good word, though. At least when read correctly! My apologies, Sammie.

I dont find it that absurd, I guess what im trying to say is that sex, religion, and sexual preference should never play a role in your views of judging others or government, as they create a bias for how you should treat others and how others are treated.

If you think about it, if we were all a shemale, all one, there would be none of this unfair treatment of women because you could not compare one sex to another. I support the movement for all to be treated equal, but with the way the government is running, and the strong ties to religion within it (even though some say religion plays no part, it plays a huge part) I cant see these groups completely making a 360 turn on the way things run unless one of them can be elected president and fully correct our flaws in our government. While these groups are a worthwhile cause, My point is that these barriers we have to face shouldnt have been there in the first place, because there is no proof that one sex or race is better than another.

*everythings alright birdie

I know I have already typed a lot in the last hour or so, but I was thinking about Samwhore's usage of this word and I thought I would address it. First off, Sam, I am sure you didn't mean to use tolerance in a negative way- that's why I am going to discuss it.

Tolerance is NOT the answer to equality, or acceptance of people. Tolerance is simply the ability to brush off, or not let a certain thing bother you. You can tolerate homosexuals, for example, by ignoring them and pretending they aren't there and that they don't affect your life. I am sure a lot of homophobes do this. Tolerance does not bring understanding of different perspectives, if anything it just breeds ignorance. What's needed is understanding of different cultures, backgrounds, and identities- tolerance will never achieve this.


ps: Sam, I think we agree on pretty much this whole topic, we just have different views on what it is. You think feminism singles people out, and I think it attempts to bring everyone together....neither of us are right or wrong, many people hold either of those views.

note to self

I mean tolerance exactly by the way you defined it Dutch,


and wb greenjeans!

do u think tolerance is enough though?

ps: gotta go, continue on without me...lol! Im gonna go get high and watch 300!!!

My opinion is that you either,

tolerate
accept/ flourish
disapprove/ hate

differences in people, if everyone tolerated everyone else, yes, there would be a lack of freedom of speech, but who are you to judge another person, especially when your are negatively judging a person knowing that you will never feel the pain your are bringing on them with your remarks, If everyone kept their mouth shut and put on a fake smile, it would be hard to not get along.

on the whole chivalry thing. its not dead, its waiting in ambush. i am a firm believer in chivalry, but i am also aware that there is a time and a place for it. i hold the door open for any woman, especially my mother. i try not to swear too much around girls but then again that falls under the time and place category. i try to carry a clean handkerchief with me at all times should the need arise to give it to a lady... the point im trying to make is, for me if a girl isn't into the whole i get up from the table when she gets up on a date sort of thing, well then thats just not the right type of lady for me. i want a girl that isn't afraid to on occasion swing a hammer, but i also want a girl that expects me to clean the gutters and take out the garbage.


but as far as feminism is concerned i wouldnt associate myself as being a feminist or a supporter of feminism. because to me feminists are the radical i hate men type of ladies. booo to that. but i am all for equal rights and things of that nature.



when i was in college i was in this class called intro to moral issues, and i signed up for a debate on women in combat, i was against it. well the day of the debate comes around and im sitting at the front of the class ready to get started , i look around the room and realize that there are only five guys in this class of about 30. long story short, i got creamed big time.

Oh Sam. I wish I could take everything I know and have experienced and pour it into your ear with a funnel. You're a bright, thinking person. You will eventually come to a point in your life where mere tolerance will not satisfy you, and you will want to rail against injustice, or at the very least, you will be very very very tired of plastering on a fake smile and putting up with bullshit. Don't go along to get along, unless you're just doing that on the surface while you plot against tyranny in secret.

Nurture your inner anarchist.

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Originally Posted by Mrs. Greenjeans

Oh Sam. I wish I could take everything I know and have experienced and pour it into your ear with a funnel. You're a bright, thinking person. You will eventually come to a point in your life where mere tolerance will not satisfy you, and you will want to rail against injustice, or at the very least, you will be very very very tired of plastering on a fake smile and putting up with bullshit. Don't go along to get along, unless you're just doing that on the surface while you plot against tyranny in secret.

Nurture your inner anarchist.

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Ive done that all my life, I come from the family where everything is going wrong, yet on the outside none of us crack and you would suspect that nothing is wrong. Tolerance does not satisfy me, as I do not tolerate differences, I accept and love them, I would hate to live in a world where everyone is the same. As not many know, except for a few close friends of mine, actually, know my plot against tyranny, and how the bloody revolution will take place, LOL, but true.

The only thing that I do not tolerate is those who do not tolerate others, trust me, ive been called a beaner, a dirty mexican, heard all the "go mow my lawn mexican" "run over the border mexican" and all the other racist jokes, racist jokes have never bothered me, why? because I always have one 10x about you.

I think modern feminism is phasing out, particularly extreme feminism.

I agree with BG on that people who recognize modern feminist ideas should embrace themselves as humanists, because it's a more holistic approach, rather than focusing on a minority group. I appreciate greatly what feminists did for women's movement; they proved women have (metaphorical) balls as well. As of now, in America at least, houses are much more matriarchal than in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s.

The one issue I have with modern feminism is the sudden growth in "women's" this, or that. For example, women's hopsitals. I believe they are discriminatory, in a passive way, of course. I recognize women have vaginas, breasts, and different hormone levels- even different emotional needs, but there is no need to have a complete hospital specifically tailored to women.

I do believe women are entitled to their own seperate unit in the hospital, particularly post-partum. That is a given.

I realize women are different from men, but equal. From a purely populational point, women are actually the majority, not only in the US, but in the world as well. When was the last time ribbons, fundraising walks, hospital wings, and even cereals were devoted to prostate cancer, or heart disease research for men? I'm definately picking the cotton here, but if feminists want to be treated equally, don't pander to your own selective gender, and completely ignore men's issues.

The task lies now in promoting HUMANISM in countries that truly abuse men and women through tribal wars, rape, slavery, and mutilation.

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Originally Posted by Purple Banana

When was the last time ribbons, fundraising walks, hospital wings, and even cereals were devoted to prostate cancer, or heart disease research for men? I'm definately picking the cotton here, but if feminists want to be treated equally, don't pander to your own selective gender, and completely ignore men's issues.
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I was with you all the way up to here hon. Heart disease is the number one (non-spousal) killer of women. For the vast majority of history, research on heart disease was conducted almost exclusively on men, giving very skewed results when women would present with heart disease. Even the typical signs of a heart attack (chest pain, pain and numbness in the left arm) are typical to men. Many women don't even realize they've had a heart attack because they presented differently i.e. with back or neck pain rather than the way we've always been taught to recognize a heart attack.

To me, your above question is on a par with saying "Why don't we have white history month?'
The answer is, "Every month is white history month."
This is why it's important to have research aimed at women; it has to be that way for awhile just to level the field.
And really, keeping women healthy shouldn't have to be a feminist issue. The health of the entire world is much better if our mothers, sisters, and daughters are going strong.:thumbsup:

I believe in equal pay for equal work.

But I open doors for girls. I treat all females like ladies.

I do not know if that is a feminist or not.

But that is who I am.

hmmmm.. time for a sexist joke

Q. What do you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
A. Nothing, she's been told twice already.

I'm not claiming there shouldn't be research on women's health issues; breast cancer and heart disease are very serious diseases for women, and awareness should definately be made as public as possible. I'm just wondering why there's not much awareness on prostate cancer, or testicular cancer, other than the brief pamphlets in urologist and school nurse's offices. I'm not even talking about funding, but simply awareness- commercials, support walks, ect.

I fully support breast cancer awareness, I've done I don't know how many 5k walks for Susan Komen's foundation. I would be equally as happy to do a prostate cancer walk, though.

As a healthcare worker, I don't think it's right for non-private companies to build a hospital soley for women. I'm not saying build a men's hospital. Simply give the best care you can give to your patients regardless of their problems. Specialty units, like women's oncology units and post-partum are very acceptable. I work with post-partum moms, and it's amazing to see someone go through giving birth, and still look great.

Other units, such as womens cardiac units or orthopedic units, I don't believe there is any real reason to have a women's unit. True, women's hearts are entirely different than a male's heart, but each person has their own unique symptoms- male or female. In that respect, regular non-specialty med/surg patients have no real need for seperate units. Seperate rooms, definately. But otherwise, you're just splitting hairs.

Sorry if I sounded a bit one-sided up there, GJ, I should have clarified more.

purple banana~ this is a bit off topic but there was a week in the NHL that the majority of hockey players used pink sticks to be auctioned off to raise money for breast cancer awareness.



greenejeans ~ every month is white history month? care to elaborate on that one?

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Originally Posted by Samwhore

I acknowledge your statement, but a main reason why I dont like the idea is that we shouldnt need to be fighting for equal rights in the first place, and that these types of groups should not need to exist because we should all tolerate each others differences and not let them play a role in how we view people

:hippy:

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Hi Samwhore- You are correct in that things SHOULD be different, and if all was well, we shouldn't need to fight against oppression. But the world is NOT as it should be, so what dutch.lover is talking about is a way to make what should be become what is. Of course, nobody likes the idea that equality does not currently exist with regards to a number of groups, but sweetie, if we don't try to redress the issues, they will not just go away. It is upsetting to think of the world that way, but we must, in order to affect change.

my view we are all human the same rights for everyone,take away the labels and we are all the same!!

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Originally Posted by rickytikki

alrite i understand that about saying all feminists dont blame there problems on men but for those that do that is also very frustrating becasue in the natural sense like a couple thousand years ago women would take care of the babies in the home and men would take care of the babies and the women abroad like hunting for food, protection, and such so i think its only natural that something like that still carries over into modern times. its instinct

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I have no idea what you mean:D

Yeah, I saw that, Hockey- that was really great. I wish I could get the one Lundqvist is gonna sign... I don't think I could afford it.

Not a huge fan of the Rangers, but I like 'em a good amount. Go Flyers!

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

greenejeans ~ every month is white history month? care to elaborate on that one?

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Here is another example that i think will clarify her point...when kids complain about mothers day, and fathers day cause they want their own special day, and the parents say "but every day is kids day."

whites don't need something like a history month because we have pretty much been "in power"/dominant since humankind as we know it.

Oh, and about Purple Bananas comment about cancers...there was a campaign (i think it's bc cancer society) started up last year that deals with "below the waist cancers"! It's awesome, it's called The Underwear Affair and it's a walk/run to raise money for all "taboo" cancers such as colon, rectal, cervical, ovarian, etc. It's not for a specific gender which I think is cool since most cancers seem to, even implicitly, have a huge gender component added to them. Like, breast cancer is usually a woman focused thing, but many men get it too. The best part about The Underwear Affair? You do the walk/run in your underwear!!! Well, u don't have to, but that's the novelty of it.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

purple banana~ this is a bit off topic but there was a week in the NHL that the majority of hockey players used pink sticks to be auctioned off to raise money for breast cancer awareness.



greenejeans ~ every month is white history month? care to elaborate on that one?

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Do I really need to LOL? I think that's a separate thread, which I'd be happy to post on if you'd like to open it.

I was drawing an analogy for Purple Banana.
Maybe I should have said "It's like asking why isn't there a men's issues forum on CDot? " The answer is, "All of CDot is a men's issues forum":D

Wanna hear a joke, womens rights:D but yeah that was a joke and i don't feel that way, i think ladies should be treated the best

Oh, dangit all to hell: I was doing my eyebrows and saw this thread, got sidetracked, and now I'm kinda lopsided. Anyhow, first of, I'd like to say congrats and thanks to all of you for keeping this thread civil. I've read far too many long long threads about many topics which I stand on one side or the other including feminism, gun control, abortion, and read through far too many threads which were nothing but thoughtless, rude screaming. As far as contributing: I don't have much to say though I would like to ask Dutch.Lover a question that's been bothering me lately.

I've been through my share of feminist classes as well, and I liked my Third Wave Feminism class the best, though my friend and I in it had an interesting discussion, which was never answered. She pointed out that since feminism is opening up so much that almost everyone's version of feminism is viable, what's to stop an antifeminist from calling themselves feminist? I didn't have an answer, but I left university calling myself a feminist. After graduation, I now work at a sawmill with a crew list of men except for one woman. Most of them treat me very equally and I couldn't ask for a better group. And when I use the term equally, I mean they treat me as a member of the group. They don't censor their language around me, they don't censor their topics, they treat me according to my experience level and strength. One guy, who calls himself a gentleman and often complains of the uncouth company he is 'forced' to work with, stood out and invited me to dinner one night, and, regretably, I accepted. (I swear, this is leading to something) Anyhow, during the course of the evening, he tried to ply me with lots of wine, repeatedly said things like "I'm old enough to be your father but I'm sexually attracted to me" (he's OLDER than my father) while staring at me hungrily, mentioned that one of the other guys on the crew must have done something to his daughter since she didn't marry until she was 30, and then to top it all off, when I mentioned I considered myself a feminist, he said he was one too. Ever since, I don't consider myself a feminist.

So Dutch.Lover, or anyone else, for that matter, do you have any comments? Because I'm for sure still struggling with that dilemma.

I don't know what to say to that^, I'm tired and it will require some energy to give a thoughtful and well reasoned reply, and I'm not Dutch.Lover, but I do have an opinion, I just can't seem to articulate it right now and I want to remember to give it a shot later;)

But I wanted to tell you I got a huge kick out of this.v

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Originally Posted by SaanenGoats

he said he was one too. Ever since, I don't consider myself a feminist.

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