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What does it mean to be free? It's obvious to me that most people have locked themselves in self created prisons, so what does it mean to be free, and how do you get there?
and
For the Christians, What does it mean when Jesus said, "The truth shall make you free"?
What is truth, anyway?
Junk~
i actually dont believe the truth will set you free.
i believe people are not prepared to understand the "truth" of life.
knowledge a prison itself, which is why we are so carefree as children, unnassuming of the world, our playground. (ignorance is bliss)
i believe being one's self is freedom, not caring about what other's think of you. Self-consciousness is a great prison we are trapped by every day.
Good questions. You have to learn everything on your own. I believe I am free. I do what I want, I think what I want to think, I voice my opinion, I am not opressed. Once I am not free, I won't live.
I don't view knowledge to be a prison at all, but I understand your child analogy. I think children are more free because they are so innocent in that that are able to trust, and view life with such wonder. Ignorance can be bliss, but knowledge in and of itself is not a prison, imo. It's what you do with that knowledge, or how you handle it that matters.
Matt, Glad you chimed in, bro... Hows things going? I view things like you, man. (To a point) To live is freedom! What about the inward man, tho? Do you feel free in that regard?
Junk~
Freedom is thinking for yourself and doing what pleases you.
freedom is an illusion.
if you ask that question of a thousand people, you'll most likely get a thousand answers. like truth or beauty, it is subjective. you can be free to do this or free to be that, but those are only specific instances of limited freedom. you are always limited by the desires of yourself and others, trapped by the needs of existence. absolute freedom from all the constraints of this life might be attained at death, but since i haven't died yet i'm not sure and i don't see that a corpse has much need of freedom anyway.
freedom might best be considered as a journey with no fixed destination besides its eventual end.
We are and will be as free as we allow ourselves to be. Did that make sense? :D It's all in the mind. :thumbsup:
Truth always liberates. Now, someone may say that this is not true for those "unprepared for it." However, that is only a manner of speaking - in reality those who are "unprepared" cannot receive the truth. What they hear and what they understand are two different things - they don't grasp the truth at all, but a corruption of it, a perversion created by their own character flaws. As such, these persons do not disprove the rule. As Christ said "you hear, but do not understand."
To an extent, I think people still aren't "hearing and understanding" Him, including those who profess explicit belief in Him.
"The truth shall make you free"
You're are a Christian, so what is truth to you?
Junk~
re. free will
The reason only Christians historically have REALLY believed in free will (though certainly not all of them have - ex. Calvinism), esp. if you go back to the early Greek language writings of the various "Church Fathers", was because they believed in creation ex nihilio.
This means, whatever exists besides God (whether that be Heaven, lesser spiritual planes, "angelic" beings, material existence, man, animals, rocks etc.) can be summed up as "created." Compared to God they are all the same, and He utterly different from them. And where as He simply "is" ("I Am, that I Am" like it says in the third chapter of Exodus), we "are" from "nothing." This is the meaning of the phrase that the "world rests in God's hand" - it's the idea that creation is being upheld by His "power" alone, that it has no existence besides this. God exists, creation has existence (from God.)
So, while that makes all things related to Him in the sense of an integral dependency, it also means they are all utterly unlike Him and in fact are NOT Him. That's the key, and that's where all pre-Christian, pre-Judaic "philosophies" and even mythologies went wrong - they imagined the substance of the Divine and the substance of the manifest universe to be identical. Hence, why ancient creation stories from other cultures (besides the Israelites) often began with the "birth of the Gods" from the same generic and eternal "stuff" which the universe is made of. In the Egyptian creation stories, you'll find the basic idea of the Gods emerging from an eternal abyss of dark waters. It is that chaotic abyss which is really "divine", and everything else is simply a form of it.
The God of the Jewish mythos, however, is different than creation. This is why, while Genesis chapter 1 uses the exact same themes as their pagan neighbours, there are some very obvious key differences, telling differences. The biggest, is that it is very clear that there was a point where the "chaotic abyss" (called "the waters" in Genesis) did not exist. God created them too, they exist because He "said so." And He in turn energized the abyss, and gave it form (the laws of nature.) The universe is like God's plant, growing and flowering, but rooted in the soils of absolute "nothingness".
I go through all of this detail, because this seperation means that the created order does have freedom. While it will do nothing that is a surprise to God (for He is outside of time - that is a "law of nature", itself a created thing), how it grows has a great deal of indepndence - yet in the end, it is still the plant which God has seeded and grown out. It's certainly a paradox, but not to the point of being an utterly pointless assertion.
So in reality, if the Christian is asked "do you believe in free will?" he must answer "yes." And when he is asked "do you believe in predestination" he will also say "yes." The created order is like God in that it has freedom, but it is unlike God in that it's freedom is circumscribed/limited. For example, you and I really only have "free choice" properly speaking, not "free will" - it's not as if we can just "will" whatever we may want at a given moment to happen. God does it constantly, we never do - save virtually perhaps (in the mind - though even that has severe limits). Reality imposes itself upon us, we can only make a relatively narrow set of choices about how we deal with that. So it's kind of like "micro free will" if there can even possibly be a comparison between this and the utter freedom of God (Who just "is".)
Essentially? Christ Himself. Pontius Pilate asked ironically "what is truth?" Well, It was standing right in front of him, battered and bloodied.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
Cosmically, He is the origin and principle of all things - the "Logos of God." However for us, He is a brother, even a friend. Someone with a face, with a life, Who could even suffer like us. He was a person in history and in time, and like the major part of humanity (in all times and places), born, lived, and died in borderline poverty. He had a mom, family, and friends. A concrete historicaly person.
That "historical Christ" and the "Divine Christ" or the "Cosmic Christ" even that some new-age types refer to, are both distinct yet the same now. Christ has human and divine natures. This is the ultimate bond between God and His creatures - He has become one of them...and in turn, that means just as He participates in them, they in turn participate in Him. This was why the early Christians mingled water and wine at their Eucharist - it symbolized the union of the Divine and the Created (and specifically/especially, human) in Jesus of Nazareth, an obscure (certainly outside of Judea for those brief three years of preaching) Jewish carpenter Who basically changed the entire course of human history.
That is the essential truth of Christianity - that the created and the uncreated have met, and that it is possible for creatures to participate in the Divine Nature because of this.
but truth is relative. your belief gives you a certain set of truths, a narrow view of reality that removes you from other possibilities. to believe in "the great truth" or even a set of immutable truths seems foolish if you consider that everything is constantly changing. the very idea of some great truth which contains the answer to the question of our existence seems to be nothing more than humanity's vain hope that they will some day be able to understand the processes of a universe to vast for them to comprehend. religion provides a simple solution where understanding is not necessary, merely obedience. science provides a more complex solution where by experiment all questions may be answered. both expose the vanity of man, believing that he is capable of influencing the infinite or that he is important enough to merit its attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharer6969
I agree. Of course, whether or not what happens to please us is "for the better" is a topic unto itself. But this is true, that in the end, freedom would be the ability to choose as one see's fit. And in Christian cosmology, it is believed this type of freedom really does exist (ex. satan.)Quote:
Originally Posted by 40oz
If God is, and created everything out of nothing, then there would be something outside of God, which I don't believe. In fact, I think that God actually created out of himself, which would make all creation a fragment of the whole of God. That being said, wouldn't this make all things divine in and of themselves? (being extensions of God) God is the all, or all that is - in my mind. To me, God is life, and God is love, (light) and everything that falls inbetween. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."
If you said "our relationship to truth is relative", I'd agree. The object and it's audience are two different things. What we hope for, however, is that our apprehension of the object is at least a valid (and useful) analogy - because that's all our ideas can be, is analogies or metaphores. If they were anything more, they would be the object.Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
I think it's safe for me to say you're probably assuming an awful lot about my actual beliefs which is incorrect.Quote:
your belief gives you a certain set of truths, a narrow view of reality that removes you from other possibilities.
Yes, our relationship to the truth is always changing. Personally, I think our metaphores have only improved with time. However, I'm still firmly persuaded to believe that the basic Christian metaphore is descriptive of reality.Quote:
to believe in "the great truth" or even a set of immutable truths seems foolish if you consider that everything is constantly changing.
That's the thing though, I don't think Christianity really claims to know the ultimate reason for why we exist, and would tend to say we cannot know this. Being told what will bring peace to a person and will reconcile them to the Divine isn't at all the same as saying more fundamentally "why?" I mean, why does anything exist as opposed to not? That is unknown, and probably will remain such, for we can only know as human beings know. That may very well be something beyond our ability to comprehend.Quote:
the very idea of some great truth which contains the answer to the question of our existence seems to be nothing more than humanity's vain hope that they will some day be able to understand the processes of a universe to vast for them to comprehend.
Some religions maybe. I can't speak for everyone.Quote:
religion provides a simple solution where understanding is not necessary, merely obedience.
If man exists, he already has the "attention of the Infinite." "Science" is a methodology, and when people usually speak of "science" they really mean "physical science." In classical systems of reason (including those which were formative to the origins of the physical sciences) "natural philosophy" or "science" as people call it now, was understood to be a type of "science", but not the only one.Quote:
science provides a more complex solution where by experiment all questions may be answered. both expose the vanity of man, believing that he is capable of influencing the infinite or that he is important enough to merit its attention.
Observation with the physical senses can tell us alot of things, but mainly only about itself. Physicality is like a closed loop, or a circle - it only knows itself via itself. On it's own, it has no appreciation of anything. Human beings OTOH are obviously "purpose driven", they are interpretive creatures. As such, he has "types of knowing" which go beyond mechanistic physics, which can only tell one that how "the ball rolls down hill", and not why the ball ultimately does this. "It just does!" is what it is reduced to. And that's fine, because that's all that kind of methodology is supposed to do.
So falsifiable experimentation cannot (by it's very nature, not by any kind of weakness - it's like expecting a pig to fly or being surprised a venemous snake will bite) "tell us everything." If you think about such a statement, it doesn't even make sense. You may as well say "sensation is everything." That we're having this lovely conversations proves that it is not.
Then without realizing it, you're worshipping the creature instead of the Creator. Confusing the two is exactly what the Apostle was talking about in the opening chapter of the Epistle to the Romans.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
People often say "God is the Creator" without knowing what they are saying, mainly because in modern tongues the distinction the Scriptures make between "creating" and "fashioning" are lost. Strictly speaking, only God "creates" - however, both God and man can be said to "make" or "fashion." Both can excercise their wills within the created order - both have "will" within that order. But only God creates, in that He brings out of nothing, and this because of His absolute freedom. Men on the other hand, are always fashioning out of pre-existent "matter" (whether physical or spiritual/intellectual); we're sponges and recyclers, we originate nothing - we only choose between what is basically put in front of us by others.
God is known, because He makes Himself known. However apart from this, He is utterly unknowable. He is "in essence" completely different than anything you can even conceptualize, let alone see or hear. What we know of Him, is to the extent He wants us to know of Him, and in terms we can understand (basically, analogies with things we know.) That is Who He is for us, because He "wants" it that way...and why? Who knows? I don't. Likely because I cannot. No one can.
So while His creation points to Him in it's details, and the "reason" He has made us with points to Him, and while inspired men "knew" Him in a special way (receiving "words")...none of this is of itself, Him/God. That is something we are ceaselessly moving towards, endlessly. Endless divinization, endless theosis. Endless revelation.
It says in the Bible that Moses was not like other men, because he came to know God "face to face." What that means, is that his relation to God was direct, almost hypostatic (oness of being) - for him (though I'm sure he couldn't communicate this save by analogies) "knowing God" went above categories or impressions - He (God) just "was", and he (Moses) just "was", together. That is how it would be, and that's still dumbing things down in language heathens like us can hopefully understand. Really this is the road everyone is headed toward - it's just Moses, alone amongst men (even amongst the Prophets) was "there" in this world, in this present life.
But yet as close as they were, God hid Moses' body from the superstitious Israelites, when Moses died. Why? Because they would have worshipped it "as God", just like they did the idol of the Golden Calf. Keep in mind, that according to the Bible (read carefully), they worshipped the Golden Calf as God. IOW. they called it "YHWH" (possibly pronounced "Yahweh" or "Yahuwa" in archaic Hebrew...we don't know....it means "He Who Is"), offered it sacrifices with YHWH's Priests officiating, etc. And why did they do this? Because they thought Moses was dead on Mt.Sinai, and to their superstitious way of thinking he may as well "be God".
But the Scriptures reject this. The creation is not the Creator - hence why, as great and lofty as Moses was, as close to God as he was...he was NOT God, and so his remains were hidden away (according to the Jewish midrash and a brief mention in the New Testament, it was occulted/translated into Paradise via angelic powers, but that's ultimately neither here nor there.)
If you think about it, even though Jesus Christ Himself is BOTH Divine and Human, God and Man, the two are still distinct - He wasn't pretending when He felt pains of hunger, or even wept at the anguish of His friends when Lazarus died. Indeed, He even felt anxiety and misery over the prospect of being brutalized and put to death upon the Cross, as the story of the "Garden of Gethsemene" clearly states. Christ is the "key", the symbol and figure of the entirity of existence - the unity and duality within Him, are the microcosm of the relationship between the creation and the Creator (just as it's been said that man himself is a microcosm of the created order.)
Consider this, sharer6969:
1 Corinthians 13
8. Love lasts forever. There are such things as prophecies, but they will disappear. There are such things as languages, but they will stop. There is such a thing as knowledge , but it will disappear. 9. We only know portions of thingg . We prophesy in parts, 10. but when that which is complete comes, the parts will disappear. 11. When I was a child, I used to talk about the things that a child would talk about. I thought and reasoned as a child does, but now that I have become an adult, I have put aside the ways of children. 12. At this time, we see only a blurred image in the mirror. At the time of maturity, we will see plainly--as one person looking at another's face. Now I know things only partially, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me. 13. Now these three things last: faith, hope, and love--but the most important of these is love.
If you are correct in saying that we are seperate from God, and created out of nothing, then all will perish. The only thing eternal would be the things of God himself. (Love), 'hope' which derives from love, and 'faith' which also derives from love.
My view is that God is life & love...
John 1
1. In the beginning, there was the Word. The Word was with God. The Word was deity. 2. He was with God in the beginning. 3. Through him everything was made. Without him nothing which has happened would have happened. 4. He was the Source of life. That life was light for people.
If the scriptures I have quoted are true, and the source of life is light, and never dies (diety) then that source and that light and the verry essence of God must be Love, as love lasts forever. I'm not talking about the world, or physical matter, I'm speaking of "Life" as opposed to nothingness. Love is complete, love IS life, and love IS the divine.
"His life is the light that shines through the darkness--and the darkness can never extinguish it."
To put it simply, the Christ man was love made manifest in humanly form, (Born of God's Spirit" (Love) and this is the essence that saves, the truth that makes you free, and the light in darkness that never dies.
Junk~
FREEDOM....ahh freedom..what a interesting word.
For me Freedom is a state of mind but I would also consider it is an actual place that I mentally reside. Freedom from fear of death. Freedom from the "bad things" in life. Freedom from condemnation. Freedom from hate. Freedom from sin, the world, the devil, and anything that is against God. Freedom is knowing Christ! And living in his "free" world is purely stated.... amazing.
A world where he is my father and I am his son. A world where he wants the best for me and those I love. A world where I can call on him and he answers me. Not because of anything other than love. Wow...Peace :jointsmile:
And for those who read this and just think this is lame or whatever. I can only say that this is truely how I live. This is how I love. And I make no apologies for it.
Ritchie, my man!! :thumbsup: You get what few got, and what so many fail to see, lol!
Love,
Junk~
I have a definition of freedom for me, but it's not EXACTLY how I see freedom, just the easiest way to describe it, Freedom=without fear. Too many people are controlled by fear. I try to live without fear.
I feel you , and ill add this i found peace of mind when i heard bob marley and when i got high it has made me a better person .... I feel the same man and recomend bob marleyQuote:
Originally Posted by RichieRich
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds............ BOB MARLEY ....ONE LOVE
Freedom = No fear :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt the Funk
I'm not pushing Christianity, but the bible say, "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment"
Love,
Junk~
:hippy:
gotta love it! :thumbsup:
Just smoked some salvia, meditated with some insense while playing some thought-provokingLOLmusic in the backround. To achieve freedom, you must realize first what it is to be free. Actually i have no idea whta I am talking about now. Just as a general rule I like to think of everything as one big life form. We are infinate as a lifeform. Internally in our bodies their are life forms, and life forms within them, infinitely. In these infinities there are universes exactly like ours, with minors changes, and ones tottally different. I believe "GOD" is us. We are the super being, when you die your consiousness enters the realm of the super conscience which then recycles into other consciences. OK i'm done because I realize I am rambling and probably explaining shit worng.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt the Funk
Interesting views of the human body, but all of our body will pass and degrade, so it can't very well be infinate, imo. All that is infinate is spirit; physical lifeforms (Body) cease to exist, or transfer into something else as food. I think we are of God, but not God himself. We are not all spirit, but we are also body. Spirit come from God, and we experience it at which ever level we choose.
Freedom = Without fear
Do you think true freedom come in smoke session? I think that freedom comes in time; like an acorn, it starts as seed but doesn't mature and become a "tree" (Free) until its needs are met. It needs proper nourishment, sunlight, etc before it can be a "tree". To me freedom is a process of inner fulfillment, and a journey of peace. Freedom come from inside in spirit, no fear, no anger, no resentment, no envy, no jealousy. You can try meditation, you can try salvia, you can try herb, but these are mere spurts of freedom if any at all. I believe that true freedom comes when you allow the inner man to be nourished daily.
Love,
Junk~
The way I use drugs use to be for fun. But even as a young kid I use to feel really spiritual. And for the past year or two too many doctors have been calling me psychotic. With the drugs freedom may be achieved simply by seeing stuff from a different point of veiw. I kind of agree with your metaphor but not fully. It's hard for me to put what I am thinking into words(not very good with them). But yes true freedom comes from within, once you are free you know it. You can't have anyone else tell you, you are free. Freedom is kind of like being one with this "god" as I was talking about earlier. in society we make ourselves out to be something greater than we are. We are merely cells. Well not even just cells, more like life. We are life, there is no death. In that sense we are infinite. Our bodies degrade and become more life, our life fuels some other being, which fuels antoher, and another, and so on. But I believe the spirit lives on. And they continue to give life to this earth, and eventually pass on to the next uhh level? It's like an infinite loop of life. Kind of like the circle of life. That's part of why I fully believe in ghosts. Also in terms of god, I use to be a catholic, went to catholic school for a while too. I use to think I could talk to god. I swear i've had conversations with him. But when I get thinking more about what god is, I realize this is impossible. To me god is love,unity, and peace. God keeps this infinite loop from ending. God is life. Well i'm done, hopefully you can somewhat understand what I am saying. Also sorry for getting off topic and switching around so much(I have a hard time focusing plus a continually racing brain that drives me crazy). Anyways I like reading your posts so any input would be nice to read and appreciated :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
are you bi polar by chance?
At one point I was. Now I am "schizophrenic". My diagnosis changes every few months. I hate it. I don't know what I have anymore, or if anything. I meet the criteria for a lot of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
You're prob schizoaffective, man. Not always a bad thing to be if you're able to keep the delusions at bay. You have insight that many do not, and if you find your foundation, you'll find your way and things will get better. I was dx the same. ;) It doesn't make you crazy unless you think more highly of yourself, and believe it, then you actually are. Knowing your place is a wonderful thing, so is love, bro.. . ..It changed my life with a little help from Abilify, lol
Junk~
I hate the meds haha. I was on seroquel for a long while. Geodon, resperdol, etc. They all made me depressed, which is what I remember being when I was younger. But hey i'm a teenager and a lot of doctors don't take me seriously. I don't know what med they are putting me on next(they said something to slow down my thoughts and my disorganized thinking). But I think weed is the best med for me. My parents agree too, so we are setting up a meeting with a special doctor so I can get a recommendation. I just decided to quit weed 1. too many problems to get money for the weed. and it's illegal. And yeah I heard about this schizoaffective thing, something I should talk to my doc about probably. Also thinking highly of myself is something that only happened when I thought I was going through mania(relationships ruined alot of the time) anyways enough with the hi-jacking of this thread. And yes, one love!
Ascension is complete freedom, personally i believe that it is the meaning of life, every person's destiny is to ascend or at least get closer. Ascended masters can change thier physical appearance, such as thier eyes, hair, ect. even to a completely different person. They can teleport instantly within thier bodies, and materialize anything that they want or need. They also are in a state of pure bliss all the time.