Any other "conservative" christians out there

By "conservative Christian" I mean holds as closely as possible to the Christian Scriptures (the New Testament) as possible, attends church regularly, believes Christ's words even when they're unpopular (for instance when He says in the book of John, "I am the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me."), etc...

Don't get me wrong, I respect all religions and I suspect we all have a lot to learn from each other. But Christ and the Bible has done too much to help me in life. I'll never be able to deny my utmost faith in the complete truthfulness of the Word of God.

Anyway... the point of my post is... I don't know *anyone* with my core beliefs who smokes weed. When I first became a Christian I was taught any alcohol (and of course weed, crack, whatever) were immoral and forbidden. As I matured in my faith and read the Bible for myself along with prayer, I realized that not only did Christ turn water into wine as his first recorded miracle, but he also is recorded as drinking it!

So I began drinking, because there's nothing better then a good glass of wine or a nice pair of ales, and if Christ made it, drank it, and if drinking one gives me more reason to praise God... then it certainly isn't wrong. Christians are warned in the Scriptures to not get drunk, and so I avoid drinking in excess.

I've recently decided to enjoy the good bud again. I smoked before I became a Christian, and after doing some research about legalization of cannabis (I'm about to enter law school and I'm interested in the war on drugs in general) I realized it is in fact a less addictive, less toxic (almost zero toxicity), and less dangerous drug then alcohol. So WTF, why would it be immoral and alcohol not be? It isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, and I used to just figure it was wrong because alcohol was wrong. But now I'm thinking if I can enjoy some nice beer without abusing it and getting drunk off my ass, it's probably fine to enjoy some nice bud without getting stoned out of my mind. There'd be nothing like smokin' some of God's green bud to make me thankful for Him and His creation. In my conscience, and in my prayers, I feel that I'm not doing anything wrong if I partake. ;-)

Anyway... most of my friends would freak if I told them I smoke. A few of them will laugh and be cool with it, but definitely would not join in. Anyone out there with my beliefs who smokes? I suspect I'm sort of an anomaly in both the "conservative/Baptist" Christian world and the bud smoker's world, but I'm not sure.

God has done many things for myself as well. But that simply doesn't mean men of dark skin were bred to serve me, or that gays are sinful and will go to hell. It just isn't right. And the morality of bud is that it is entirely MORAL, one can be spiritually enlightened under the influence(I was agnostic before I started smoking, i believe it helped me find my way.) I say toke up, say a little prayer thanking god for everything, and turn up some delicious tunes and enjoy yourself.

Left wing 'progressive' christian here, lol. Jesus was a cool guy by me, man. I don't think the bible is innerant, but the words in red make me think, and I like the guys style. Talk about being a tree huggin, people lovin hippy protestor...well, Jesus was the man! :D

The cat apparently walked on water too!


:S5:

Christianity and every other religion out there has ruined and ended more lives than you could ever imagine it has caused suffering, hate and anger throughout the world.

we for the benifit of the human race need to move on and leave religion behind i say get rid of this 'spirituality' forum.

Not every religion, but Christianity and Islam have certainly had their share of conflict in the world.


btw, if you don't like the spirituality forum, don't come here. There are still a few of us who enjoy it. :thumbsup:


All you need is love

;)

spirituality and religion is good, u believe in what u want

u cant change my mind and i cant change yours

i dont see why conflict is needed

Awesome. I'm glad to hear smoking helped you find your faith. And btw, I'm pretty deep in the 'conservative Christian' movement, and I don't know anyone who teaches men of dark skin (or of any color skin) were bred to serve anyone.

Yes, most people who believe in Christian Scriptures that are without error and not "out of date" can't really get around the fact that God seems to indicate homosexuality is immoral and unnatural. That I can't get around. I respect homosexuals, but my faith won't allow me to agree with them morally.

But I will say this. I think trying to legislate sex between consenting adults or legislating marriage is absolute bullshit. I mean, what if it were the other way around and I had a gay legal system disallowing me to marry my lover!? I think that is where the majority of conservative Christians go wrong. Respectfully disagreeing with someone is one thing, but trying to force morality on someone is completely different. Laws should only prevent people from harming other people. Consenting adults should be able to do as they wish. God gave us all a free will to follow Him or to differ with His Word. I think government should do the same.

It's a shame that there is so much in the Church that turns people away from Christ. Ghandi actually said, based on the pure teachings of Christ in the Scriptures, that he would've turned to Christ.... if it weren't for the Christians! Sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2600HERTZ

God has done many things for myself as well. But that simply doesn't mean men of dark skin were bred to serve me, or that gays are sinful and will go to hell. It just isn't right. And the morality of bud is that it is entirely MORAL, one can be spiritually enlightened under the influence(I was agnostic before I started smoking, i believe it helped me find my way.) I say toke up, say a little prayer thanking god for everything, and turn up some delicious tunes and enjoy yourself.

---

though i am an atheist, my oldest and dearest friends in the world are the type of christians you are talking about. though i have never pressed the point with them, they seem to have no problem with combining christianity and weed. they also seem to have no problem combining their faith and associating with heathens like me. i have, however, noticed that many conservative christians have a tendency to be law abiding to the extreme. which means that, no matter how asinine the regulation, they will blindly follow the rules so long as it does not interfere with their religious principles.


see, i was nice about it. i can work and play nicely with others, even though i find their beliefs..... (sigh) there i go again

It is illogical to say either religion or atheism causes people to kill. The majority of both groups (atheists and religious people) are kind and gentle. To go against your claim of religion causing more suffering... some of the biggest massacres of all time were at the hands of non-religious or non-spiritual people.

The Holocaust was perpetrated by Adolf Hitler... 5-10 million people brutally murdered by the naturalist/atheist. While growing and coming to power he at times praised Christianity (as a political move), in the end he showed his true colors with comments like, "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless...", and, "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... ". As he grew further and further from his Christian upbringing he became more and more sick and murderous.

Joseph Stalin was an atheist who had between 20 and 30 million Russians murdered for their faith and/or political beliefs.

Benito Mussolini was another atheist who had half a million or more people murdered because of their faith or political beliefs.

Almost all the charities that help the poor and the needy were founded on (and many still operate on) religious principles. To take religion and spirituality out of this world would create much more suffering then you think religion itself causes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by savagepossum

Christianity and every other religion out there has ruined and ended more lives than you could ever imagine it has caused suffering, hate and anger throughout the world.

we for the benifit of the human race need to move on and leave religion behind i say get rid of this 'spirituality' forum.

---

Right on my friend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunkYard

Left wing 'progressive' christian here, lol. Jesus was a cool guy by me, man. I don't think the bible is innerant, but the words in red make me think, and I like the guys style. Talk about being a tree huggin, people lovin hippy protestor...well, Jesus was the man! :D

The cat apparently walked on water too!


:S5:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jsn9333

Awesome. I'm glad to hear smoking helped you find your faith. And btw, I'm pretty deep in the 'conservative Christian' movement, and I don't know anyone who teaches men of dark skin (or of any color skin) were bred to serve anyone.

---

The bible pretty clearly is ok with slavery:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

Thanks. At least it's good to know there are other's out there somewhere. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

though i am an atheist, my oldest and dearest friends in the world are the type of christians you are talking about. though i have never pressed the point with them, they seem to have no problem with combining christianity and weed. they also seem to have no problem combining their faith and associating with heathens like me. i have, however, noticed that many conservative christians have a tendency to be law abiding to the extreme. which means that, no matter how asinine the regulation, they will blindly follow the rules so long as it does not interfere with their religious principles.


see, i was nice about it. i can work and play nicely with others, even though i find their beliefs..... (sigh) there i go again

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by orange floyd

The bible pretty clearly is ok with slavery:


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Slavery in the Bible

---

Floyd, I understand your approach here. But jsn9333 is a Christian who follows the principles of the New Testament, which was an all new covenant (contract) between God and man, with Jesus' life as the collateral, if you will. What you're quoting from is the Old Testament, which is, well, old LOL!

By the way, I'm not Christian. I'm Wiccan, working toward my degree and ordination. My grandfather on my paternal side was a Methodist minister, and both my maternal grandparents were pastors in the Church of God. I myself was raised Southern Baptist, and used to teach Sunday school and Vacation Bible School.

Yes, slavery existed in the old testament. One thing to keep in mind is that often being a slave was more of what we, nowadays, would call being a "servant". People would sell themselves into slavery as a means to escape poverty. This is quite different from the early American/African version of slavery that comments like, "men of dark skin were bred to serve," bring to mind.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Christ along with the New Testament came after the Old Testament and brought it into new light. The Old Testament is followed strictly by no one nowadays... not even orthodox Jews. Christians generally still obey parts of the Old Testament that are repeated in the New, such as the 10 commandments, etc. But most of the intricate commandments of the Old Testament are not applicable today.

While the Old Testament is useful to get a picture of how God has worked in the past, it is useless to live by today. It had its purpose, and that purpose was to point to Christ and the better way that is available to us all today. The new testament says in the book of Hebrews chpt 7, "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." That better hope is Christ, and the New Testament.


In order to criticize Christianity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing to do), it is generally a good idea to either quote a particular Christian directly or to quote the New Testament. Much of the Old Testament (at least the by-law type parts that you have cited) is irrelevant to the beliefs of Christians. To cite random verses from the Old Testament in order to show something about Christian beliefs often just shows an ignorance of what Christianity actually is. I'm not saying that is you... but I'm just not sure how the Old Testament verses about slavery is relevant to modern Christian beliefs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by orange floyd

The bible pretty clearly is ok with slavery:


(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
(Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Slavery in the Bible

---

jesus never said to disregard the old testament.

i havent read the bible in a while, but i do remember the pharaciest (dont know how to spell) saying something along the lines of "oh yeah i see your here to get rid of the law of moses" and jesus denied doing anything of that sort.

i realize yea i might be coming off a little harsh, and you seem like a nice guy (assuming you are a guy, and my apologies if you arent). i just feel really strongly against christianity, after all the suffering its brought to the world, i find it to be illogical, and i jsut feel that we'd all be better off without it. however i think more important than stopping christianity is allowing people to practice whatever religion you want, and you seem to be a very tolerant person who doesn't force their faith on others. so lets all just share the love and smoke some weed haha:jointsmile:

jsn93333, All I have to say to you is you're letting Christianity run your mind/life. You "literally" follow the new testaments, haven't you thought that the writings are more metaphorical than literal... If there was a true god in essence, GOD would be ALL-loving to everyone and everything, because God created everything. Oh, and not to mention the books themselves are biased to shit Jesus himself didn't write them. Therefore your testaments are of a humanized,
non-omnipotent God.

I believe Christianity above all is a deceiving, discriminating, racist, sexist, and last but not least JUDGEMENTAL cult.


Just my 2 cents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MinusRyan

jsn93333, All I have to say to you is you're letting Christianity run your mind/life. You "literally" follow the new testaments, haven't you thought that the writings are more metaphorical than literal... If there was a true god in essence, GOD would be ALL-loving to everyone and everything, because God created everything. Oh, and not to mention the books themselves are biased to shit Jesus himself didn't write them. Therefore your testaments are of a humanized,
non-omnipotent God.

I believe Christianity above all is a deceiving, discriminating, racist, sexist, and last but not least JUDGEMENTAL cult.


Just my 2 cents.

---

I'm highly spiritual and I believe strongly in a driving force behind this world that is mystical and magical (smoking some good shit helped me realize this. I don't think the "God" believed in by Christians is a part of it at all. Having said that, feel free to believe whatever.

He never said to disregard it, you're right. What Christ said to the pharisees is, more or less, that He didn't come to "get rid" of the law, but rather to fulfill it.

And Christians (including the immediate disciples of Christ himself who wrote the New Testament) believe that to mean, basically, that the Old Testament is not "abolished". Rather, it is still useful in that it points to Christ. The purpose of the old testament law was to show Israel (and the modern church) how futile it is to try to work your way to heaven with a complicated set of morals (or work your way to heaven at all). It shows us, now, that the only way to peace with God is faith. So it isn't abolished... it is just fulfilled in Christ.

Anyway, I'm sure you have good reasons to feel strongly against Christianity. There's a lot of hypocrisy out there and a lot of bullshit. So right on... let's just light one up and share the love. :rasta:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by orange floyd

jesus never said to disregard the old testament.

i havent read the bible in a while, but i do remember the pharaciest (dont know how to spell) saying something along the lines of "oh yeah i see your here to get rid of the law of moses" and jesus denied doing anything of that sort.

...i realize yea i might be coming off a little harsh, and you seem like a nice guy (assuming you are a guy, and my apologies if you arent). i just feel really strongly against christianity, after all the suffering its brought to the world, i find it to be illogical, and i jsut feel that we'd all be better off without it. however i think more important than stopping christianity is allowing people to practice whatever religion you want, and you seem to be a very tolerant person who doesn't force their faith on others. so lets all just share the love and smoke some weed haha

---

My father was a good man (he died of cancer in 2001). He had a part in 'creating' me. But the fact that he was good and created me doesn't mean he accepted everything I did. Sometimes he had to discipline me for my own good. And he had to let me choose whether or not I wanted to love him and have him be part of my life (once I came of age). He could not force me to be anything other then what I chose to be.

God likewise doesn't accept everything we do. And He also gives us free will to be able to choose whether or not to love and obey Him. If we commit sin against Him, we will suffer for it. And if we deny Him, He will not force us into an eternal life with Him. He will let us wander from Him... even to eternity away from Him and all that is good. That doesn't mean He is evil. It means He values freedom and love... because love cannot be forced on anyone.

Jesus did not physically write the New Testament books. No doubt, you are correct. However, they were written by men who personally walked and lived with Jesus for years. They recorded His teachings as Scripture, and they wrote and taught as He did. I have no problem with the fact that the Scriptures are humanized. The manuscripts we have today are 99% accurate to the earliest ones we have historically. They were preserved and respected from the very beginning. It's the number one best seller of all time. :) And it doesn't hold that title because it is foolish and full of lies. When people come to it with an open mind, they generally grow to learn from and love it.

As far as being judgmental... everyone is judgmental to a certain degree. Some people are willing to admit it. Some people are only willing to point it out in other people. Anyway... I have thought of the metaphorical vs. literal debate a lot. When it comes down to it, Christ was a historical figure. Rare is the historian who would disagree with that. And none would disagree of the historical truth of the disciples who all died holding to their teachings about their Teacher Christ. This is history, not day-dreams. These are real people and real, literal teachings... not just analogies someone made up and written down a hundred years ago to help everyone get along better.

If someone's conscience lets them stick to the metaphorical method of following the Scriptures, so be it. But to me, that generally turns into more of a "salad bar" type of christianity where people pick and choose what parts of God's teachings they want to obey and what parts they want to disregard. I for one say when it comes to believing in God and obeying him, folks need to shit or get off the pot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MinusRyan

jsn93333, All I have to say to you is you're letting Christianity run your mind/life. You "literally" follow the new testaments, haven't you thought that the writings are more metaphorical than literal... If there was a true god in essence, GOD would be ALL-loving to everyone and everything, because God created everything. Oh, and not to mention the books themselves are biased to shit Jesus himself didn't write them. Therefore your testaments are of a humanized,
non-omnipotent God.

I believe Christianity above all is a deceiving, discriminating, racist, sexist, and last but not least JUDGEMENTAL cult.


Just my 2 cents.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by savagepossum

Christianity and every other religion out there has ruined and ended more lives than you could ever imagine it has caused suffering, hate and anger throughout the world.

we for the benifit of the human race need to move on and leave religion behind i say get rid of this 'spirituality' forum.

---

For that matter, ideas in general have caused more strife than anything else. It will be a good day when we all stop thinking, and definately stop having convictions of any sort. :)

IOW. stop being human. Your beef ought to be with the human race in general, my friend, not "religion" per se.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by orange floyd

The bible pretty clearly is ok with slavery:

---

So? Why is slavery, in and of itself an inherently evil, utterly intolerable thing?

Now please keep in mind, I'm not asking about how such slaves ought to be treated - that's an entirely different question. Too often people confuse issues, and end up attacking things which are only tangental to the real issue at hand.

The fact of the matter is, we're not really as "anti-slavery" in this part of the world as we pretend to be. Nobody seriously thinks parents should not have some kind of rights over their children (even if they've reached the age of reason - which most would say is somewhere around seven), including the ability to restrict their freedom. Indeed, all of us to some degree have exterior forces curtailing our freedom - and only the most immature of adults will regard that as an utterly intolerable, unforgivable thing. No, it's just a fact of life, and we make the best of it.

I always felt the age of reason is 13..in part I suppose based on Jewish tradition. However, I'm Wiccan, and we also hold 13 to be the age of reason, more or less. That's when we start allowing our kids to take a more active role in ritual etc., and begin the process of instruction and initiation.

i grew up in an evangelical christian church... was licensed and ordained a minister. worked fulltime at a church as a youth pastor/young adult pastor... and i smoked weed. not saying i didn't struggle at times wondering the morality of it SIMPLY because it is against the law and the Bibile is strong in its stances on obeying authority. i never doubted its morality simply as a plant to be used for medicine/recreation/spiritual pursuits and i still do not.

Jesus rules! God's Word is such an amasing book of wisdom and knowlegde, so sad so many people don't really know the power it contains.

Prayer Requests and Miracles 24 hours a day! Prayer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharer6969

So? Why is slavery, in and of itself an inherently evil, utterly intolerable thing?

Now please keep in mind, I'm not asking about how such slaves ought to be treated - that's an entirely different question. Too often people confuse issues, and end up attacking things which are only tangental to the real issue at hand.

The fact of the matter is, we're not really as "anti-slavery" in this part of the world as we pretend to be. Nobody seriously thinks parents should not have some kind of rights over their children (even if they've reached the age of reason - which most would say is somewhere around seven), including the ability to restrict their freedom. Indeed, all of us to some degree have exterior forces curtailing our freedom - and only the most immature of adults will regard that as an utterly intolerable, unforgivable thing. No, it's just a fact of life, and we make the best of it.

---

Dude, there's a HUGE difference between slavery and parental rules, or general societal laws. Parents set down rules for CHILDREN to keep them safe from bad decisions and the dangers of life, and they're still expected to keep it somewhat reasonable or they'd lose their kids on grounds of child abuse. Laws and societal rules in general are something we all wilingly abide by because it's for the well-being of the general public. SLAVERY, is the imprisonment of a grown individual, who's issue above all is that they'll never have the ability to choose their own path in life and make something of themselves, or enjoy the same rights and privilages that the rest of the public does. There's a HUGE difference between slavery and our little social rules.

what about outsourcing overseas then?

I don't really agree with any of sharer's actual points, but I think he might be right in saying we're not as anti-slavery in practice as we preach to be.

Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

i grew up in an evangelical christian church... was licensed and ordained a minister. worked fulltime at a church as a youth pastor/young adult pastor... and i smoked weed. not saying i didn't struggle at times wondering the morality of it SIMPLY because it is against the law and the Bibile is strong in its stances on obeying authority. i never doubted its morality simply as a plant to be used for medicine/recreation/spiritual pursuits and i still do not.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrdevious

Dude, there's a HUGE difference between slavery and parental rules, or general societal laws.

---

"Differences", even significant ones between two things, does not necessarily mean the two are utterly different. And I submit, there is a similarity, in so far as the two (parental authority and slavery) essentially involve authority to the point of virtual ownership. Now if that in and of itself is not inherently immoral, one will have to find something else to criticize slavery for, if they're going to insist it is inherently immoral.

Quote:

---

Parents set down rules for CHILDREN to keep them safe from bad decisions and the dangers of life, and they're still expected to keep it somewhat reasonable or they'd lose their kids on grounds of child abuse.

---

So in other words, if a parent behaves in a moral fashion (how one defines that is another argument), their rights over their children remain in tact? Well, one could just as well say the same thing, in principle, about slavery. Like I said, how one treats slaves, and the condition of having slaves, are two separate matters. It's like saying that because there are abusive, shitty parents, that parenthood is inherently immoral.

Quote:

---

Laws and societal rules in general are something we all wilingly abide by because it's for the well-being of the general public.

---

Generally, but not always. OTOH. there is no such thing as absolute authority, at least not amongst mankind. If a government attempts to enact something outside of it's "God-given" authority, then it is no law at all. The same is true of parents who demand immoral and unreasonable things of their children. If say, mom & dad demand that jr. go and put some rat poison in someone's coffee, that child is under no moral obligation whatsoever to agree, and in fact would be morally obliged to resist such an order.

Indeed, I'm kind of blown away by a "because the gov't says so" argument coming from a fellow cannabis lover.

Quote:

---

SLAVERY, is the imprisonment of a grown individual, who's issue above all is that they'll never have the ability to choose their own path in life and make something of themselves, or enjoy the same rights and privilages that the rest of the public does. There's a HUGE difference between slavery and our little social rules.

---

Umm, life in general has a way of cramping our styles and preventing us from doing whatever it is we may want to do (even when that something isn't even a morally objectionable thing.) The fact that I wasn't born into a rich family has put a lot of restrictions upon just what it is I'm free to do, including entirely wholesome things. Can I complain about this? Sure. Does it matter? Not really, because in the end being compelled to be a wage slave and pay taxes is not, in principle, immoral. It may not be the most desirable state for a man, but that's hardly the same as saying it is an inherently intolerable one.

I think that's where you may be misunderstanding me - I do believe there is a distinction to be had between what is prefferable and even "most virtuous" and what is absolutely immoral in any context. People who argue that slavery is not an ideal condition for a human being have a good point. But then again, that can be said of a lot of things. This is why I would say that the natural tendency for a prosperous, technologically advanced, and genuinely moral society would be to move away from slavery. However, I'd say the same thing about warfare and capital punishment - while in an ideal situation neither would be necessary and if we can avoid them, charity would seem to require we do so...but when all is said and done, neither is always immoral, certainly not immoral in every circumstance or in every manifestation. If someone is indeed guilty of a (morally) capital offence (like murder), it is morally licit for them to be put to death. "Eye for an eye" - however, just because this is possible, doesn't make it ideal either.

It's funny, for all of the "nuance" so called "sophisticated people" claim to have, it is they who are in reality very unreasonable and unthinkingly dogmatic about everything. Why is something "moral"? Because they say so, because it pleases them. So if they've got a taste for something, that alone makes it moral. If something is unpleasent however, the same type of person will be inclined to say it's immoral. I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this forum when I bring up this point - it's only an observation I've had about secularism in general...that taken to it's logical end, it usually ends up an irrational, tyranical mess which ends up being worse than the problems it thinks it's solving (case in point, Communism ended up being worse than the corruptions it's revolutionary leaders perceived in both governmental and religious institutions.) That is how philosophical and political materialism (atheism and secularism respectively) always end up, when allowed to reach their logical conclusion. Fortunately, a lot of complicating circumstances have prevented such a thing from happening in other parts of the western world... for now at least.

In actuality, all of the above considerations are why I consider many self professed Christians to in fact be compromised, at least on an intellectual level, even when they come off as being "really conservative" (ex. they don't approve of homosexual behaviour, abortion, etc.) While they appear to be "correct" on certain hot botton issues (and even then they often hijack these correct positions, by making stupid decisions elsewhere - case in point, so called "conservative Christians" who support "Dubya" - such persons seem to think that while sodomy and abortion are sins, which they are, lying, thievery, and immoral+illegal warfare are not), their assumptions are actually quite atheistic. Hence, why you see so many "Christians" explaining away or apologizing for certain teachings of the Scriptures, such as those aspects of the Law of Moses which allowed for slavery (and the fact that in the New Testament, the Apostles clearly do not think slavery is inherently immoral either - to the point that St.Paul admonishes a deliquent slave to return to his master.) Deep down, such views manifest a kind of "secularism in Christian drag" - the rhetoric of Christianity, a lot of "Jesus talk", but not a coherently Christian worldview.

As an aside...

...can someone believe things like the above? Yup, if they have their head on straight and don't waffle. And guess what? I believe all of the above, and think that cannabis use is essentially no different than the use of alcohol - both can be abused in their own ways, both can become "mockers" of the soul, though I'd add the caveat that generally alcohol is the more vicious of the two (it certainly does more direct harm to the body, to be sure.) The worst thing I've seen pot do to anyone is make them an unmotivated bum - but that all comes down to a question of moderation, which applies to most things. For all save a few exceptions, there is a time and place for everything. It's true of sex, it's true of war, it's true of peace. And it's true of delicious, frosty buds as well. ;)

So no one should believe for a second that the only people who make pot a part of their lifestyle are left-wing hippie flakes. I'm convinced that save for mindless reactionaries and puritans who think anything "too fun" has to be inherently evil (like the idiots who condemn all use of alcoholic beverages while ignoring the fact that the Lord Himself was a "wine drinker", and even used wine as an integral part of His supreme sacrament, the Eucharist), for most Christians the issue of cannabis is one largely shrouded in ignorance and misinformation. Simply put, these folks have been lied to by a big apparatus of corrupt government and big business - I've found that if you carefully and concretely demonstrate that such propaganda is b.s., they do come around (even if they decide that in spite of this, cannabis is not for them - which is ok too, obviously.)

is this a slavery thread now???

jsn9333... you are not alone but you are in the vast majority! even though weed is much less harmful, that is not the angle other conservative christians will ping you on. they will ping you on "obedience" to the law of the land.. as you know the Bible is huge on obedience and authority.

you could always argue back at anyone who breaks any laws (like driving 1mph over the speed limit, etc) that they do the same... but the fact is that if you are a conservative bible believing christian, you have to justsify willingly participating in illegal behaviors (though they should not be illegal, the fact is that they are).

so if you can justify that aspect in your mind soundly, then more power to you! that is a tough one to get around though... if you figure it out, let me know!!! haha... the only way i could imagine working around it (from a biblical standpoint) is if it is a key part of your spirituality and you felt it was an "oppressive" and hindering law to your walk with Christ (that wouldn't include recreational use though).

anyway, i would love to talk more as it is an issue (though this is a slavery thread now) i have faced for a long time!

Very nice post hazetwostep. That is the only potential problem I've found also, you hit it right on the head. The specific verse that comes to my mind is Romans 13:5, "Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

But like you, what comes to my mind when seeing how the majority of Bible-following Christians interpret this verse is speeding. We all do it. Well, there are a few that don't... but almost everyone does. The way I've come to see that verse is basically if I get caught speeding... submit and pay the penalty. But (here's the kicker), if I'm doing 5-7mph over chances are I probably won't even get pulled since cops and D.A.'s don't really enforce those laws until you're at least 10 or more over. So in a sense, at 7mph over the speed limit I'm still "submitting" to the authorities... maybe not to the letter of the law, but I'm at least submitting to how they enforce the laws. There are a lot of obscure laws on the books that typically aren't enforced at all or enforced very strongly. So it sort of depends how you define "submission."

To be a little more specific, the two reasons to submit given in the verse are to avoid punishment and to follow your conscience. Any law that violates God's Word (and your conscience) should definitely be followed strictly. But when it comes to laws that don't stem from any sort of moral basis, at that point the only reason to follow is to avoid punishment. And the way I see it, if you can typically break those types of laws a little bit and the government doesn't punish you at all or just punishes you a little... then in my opinion that means they aren't terribly concerned about that infraction and you're still submitting to their enforcement.

It's sort of a weird way to look at that verse. However, its really the only way it makes sense to me given that it is actually *unsafe* to follow the letter of the law sometimes (like when everyone around you on the Interstate is doing 15mph over and you're doing 1mph making them dodge you!) and even the authorities themselves don't follow all the laws.

I of course would not argue with a Christian who feels that all laws should be obeyed. If that is where their heart leads them, then that's where they need to be. But I would question their consistency of they were ok with a little speeding, but freaked out if someone smoked a joint... you know?

What helps is that my state (North Carolina) has decriminalized marijuana to a large extent. So simple possession (1st offense) typically gets you a $100 fine and your record stays clear. So I sort of see that as one of those laws the state doesn't really care too much about.

That being said, I couldn't justify a huge grow operation, since the state obviously cares very much about that (years in the slammer). I'm thinking about growing a plant or two of my own now... and I'm still considering the risks, the legal ramifications, etc. I think even one plant could get me 12 months in jail and a felony conviction. And if they decided to hand the case over to the feds for whatever reason I could get 5 years. But, chances are one plant would be dealt with lightly.

So yeah... I'm having questions about growing. But I don't really have options where I'm at since I don't know any dealers. So I my just try to flower one plant, keep it small, and try to keep my yield down.

P.S. - Yeah really... how we got onto the slavery kick I have no clue. Anyways, very good point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazetwostep

is this a slavery thread now???

jsn9333... you are not alone but you are in the vast majority! even though weed is much less harmful, that is not the angle other conservative christians will ping you on. they will ping you on "obedience" to the law of the land.. as you know the Bible is huge on obedience and authority.

you could always argue back at anyone who breaks any laws (like driving 1mph over the speed limit, etc) that they do the same... but the fact is that if you are a conservative bible believing christian, you have to justsify willingly participating in illegal behaviors (though they should not be illegal, the fact is that they are).

so if you can justify that aspect in your mind soundly, then more power to you! that is a tough one to get around though... if you figure it out, let me know!!! haha... the only way i could imagine working around it (from a biblical standpoint) is if it is a key part of your spirituality and you felt it was an "oppressive" and hindering law to your walk with Christ (that wouldn't include recreational use though).

anyway, i would love to talk more as it is an issue (though this is a slavery thread now) i have faced for a long time!

---

Quote:

---

Any other "conservative" christians out there

---

Well, if by "conservative" Christian you mean "far left" atheist, then yes, that would be me.

The Bible, as far as I can tell, is total bullshit. The Old Testament is pretty much a rationalization written by the political leaders of Israel, and appealing to the primitive mythical beliefs of the time, to justify the brutal invasion of their Lebensraum and the ruthless genocide against the "sinful" races of people they see as sub-human, an act I find morally indistinguishable from Hitler's invasion of Poland.

The New Testament goes to the other extreme, when Jesus tells us that God was just kidding with all those orders to go out and kill people and plunder their land. Instead, God really wants us to just be big pussies by not resisting evil and instantly forgiving everybody for everything. We're supposed to love our enemies and do good things to the people who hate us, in the hope that there is a God who will eventually get around to punishing evil people with eternal hellfire. Basically, Jesus tells us to not fight anybody ever, even if Nazis are taking over the town killing everybody. We're supposed to practice some kind of ultra-pacifism and forgive everybody, because we're supposed to have faith that there's a forgiving God who loves everybody but who is willing to send huge portions of humanity into an eternal torture device with no chance of forgiveness ever.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

By the way, if you're wondering why so many really religious Christians smoke weed, it's actually quite simple. Religion is, by its very nature, an institution based on authority and tradition. Without authorities and traditions, religions die out, because they have their roots planted firmly in the past and they have a hard time getting with the times. Religious institutions and very religious groups are always the last to accept social progress, be it gender equality, the abolition of monarchy, acceptance of homosexuality, or tolerance for recreational drug use.

Religious people tend to listen to authority, and they tend to follow "traditional values" for the sake of following "traditional values". Their rejection of weed has nothing to do with anything in the Bible and everything to do with religious people's willingness to follow authority and tradition more than the rest of the population. Conservative people tend to be religious, and they tend to also not like pot smoking, while leftists tend to be non-religious (or at least they tend not to follow religious traditions/authorities) and tend to like the ganja. I know of plenty of socialists who smoke pot, but very few Republicans who do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

By the way, if you're wondering why so many really religious Christians smoke weed, it's actually quite simple.

---

Sorry, I'm fucked up. :jointsmile:

Replace the word "many" with "few".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jsn9333

Yes, slavery existed in the old testament. One thing to keep in mind is that often being a slave was more of what we, nowadays, would call being a "servant". People would sell themselves into slavery as a means to escape poverty. This is quite different from the early American/African version of slavery that comments like, "men of dark skin were bred to serve," bring to mind.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Christ along with the New Testament came after the Old Testament and brought it into new light. The Old Testament is followed strictly by no one nowadays... not even orthodox Jews. Christians generally still obey parts of the Old Testament that are repeated in the New, such as the 10 commandments, etc. But most of the intricate commandments of the Old Testament are not applicable today.

While the Old Testament is useful to get a picture of how God has worked in the past, it is useless to live by today. It had its purpose, and that purpose was to point to Christ and the better way that is available to us all today. The new testament says in the book of Hebrews chpt 7, "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." That better hope is Christ, and the New Testament.


In order to criticize Christianity (which isn't necessarily a bad thing to do), it is generally a good idea to either quote a particular Christian directly or to quote the New Testament. Much of the Old Testament (at least the by-law type parts that you have cited) is irrelevant to the beliefs of Christians. To cite random verses from the Old Testament in order to show something about Christian beliefs often just shows an ignorance of what Christianity actually is. I'm not saying that is you... but I'm just not sure how the Old Testament verses about slavery is relevant to modern Christian beliefs.

---

either way,
the Old Testament in those quotes are laying the foundation
of racism to be exploited in the centuries to follow.
this idea that foreigners aren't equal, and "your race" is to
be favored because of where you happened to be born are things that have continued unto today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xblackdogx

either way,
the Old Testament in those quotes are laying the foundation
of racism to be exploited in the centuries to follow.
this idea that foreigners aren't equal, and "your race" is to
be favored because of where you happened to be born are things that have continued unto today.

---

I would say you most likely haven't even bothered reading what your criticizing (the Old Testament). Am I right? The preference God shows for the people of Israel over the people of other ancestry is not based on race ("racism" as you say), but rather is based on the religion of those people. They happened to be of a different race, most of the time, but the point is their faith (or lack there of). There were times unbelieving Israelis were killed, punished, and what not. And believing foreigners would also covert at times and not be punished. Those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising.

And as I said before, speaking of racism and evil, some of the greatest abusers were Atheists, mind you (Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, etc...). Tens of millions of people were slaughtered because of their race and heritage by these people, who denied all aspects of religion. Be sure to take a look at the history books before you go blaming the Old Testament on all that ails the world.

Right before Jesus went to heaven and left the disciples he said to them, in the book of Luke, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." He was telling them to back their bags and their swords for some traveling. Hardly wanting them to be "big pussies". That being said, he did command them specifically to not defend and spread the faith with the sword. That is a major separation between Christianity and Islam. But self-defense (the main thing people traveling would use a sword for) was a different story. He never tells anyone to not defend themselves from violence, and in fact that would be the only use for the swords he tells his disciples to buy.

What you're probably thinking of as far as being "big pussies" is his command to turn the other cheek if someone slaps you. But think of what he is saying. A slap in those days was much like how you think of the egotistical frenchman who takes his glove and wisks it across your face. It was an offense, much like giving someone the bird would be today. Christ is *not* saying if someone starts pummeling you with closed fists you should just take it until you die or get knocked out. He's saying if someone insults you, don't return the favor. It really is a nice way to live, to be honest. Try it sometime. Before I lived by His ways, if someone would cut me off on the road, I'd rush up to cut them off right back, and it would continue and continue until maybe we even exchanged words and almost fought. Or if someone insulted me under his breath I'd get in his face and tell him to say it again. Nowadays I let little piddly shit like that just roll off me... its no big deal. Whenever possible we're to try to be peaceful. It is a much better way to live. But if someone is kicking your ass for no fucking reason, then peace isn't even an option at that point, is it?

Have you even read the entirety of the New Testament? Sometimes I get the feeling that the people who feel the strongest against the Bible have never even read the whole thing with an open mind to really learn for themselves what it is all about.

And as far as the Old Testament killings and what not, those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising. Whether or not you see it as so, the fact is, that is on a totally different level then Adolf killing millions simply because of their race. God is the creator, and if He intends to punish those of his created who rebel against Him He is entirely in the right to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Well, if by "conservative" Christian you mean "far left" atheist, then yes, that would be me.

The Bible, as far as I can tell, is total bullshit. The Old Testament is pretty much a rationalization written by the political leaders of Israel, and appealing to the primitive mythical beliefs of the time, to justify the brutal invasion of their Lebensraum and the ruthless genocide against the "sinful" races of people they see as sub-human, an act I find morally indistinguishable from Hitler's invasion of Poland.

The New Testament goes to the other extreme, when Jesus tells us that God was just kidding with all those orders to go out and kill people and plunder their land. Instead, God really wants us to just be big pussies by not resisting evil and instantly forgiving everybody for everything. We're supposed to love our enemies and do good things to the people who hate us, in the hope that there is a God who will eventually get around to punishing evil people with eternal hellfire. Basically, Jesus tells us to not fight anybody ever, even if Nazis are taking over the town killing everybody. We're supposed to practice some kind of ultra-pacifism and forgive everybody, because we're supposed to have faith that there's a forgiving God who loves everybody but who is willing to send huge portions of humanity into an eternal torture device with no chance of forgiveness ever.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jsn9333

those who place faith in God are rewarded, those who do not are punished. It's that simple. That God has a preference toward those of his creation that trust, love, respect, and obey Him is not surprising. Whether or not you see it as so, the fact is, that is on a totally different level then Adolf killing millions simply because of their race. God is the creator, and if He intends to punish those of his created who rebel against Him He is entirely in the right to do so.

---

love, trust, respect and obedience are not to be carelessly doled out, they are our most cherished feelings and must be earned or they become worthless.

if a man were to come to you and tell you that i created all things for you, would you respect and obey me? if a man were to tell you that i adored you above all others, would you love me? if a man were to attribute great deeds and miracles to me, would you respect me? no, of course not. if these men's words were collected and published, would you worship me and if you refused would i be justified in punishing you? yet all these things are expected of humanity by your supposedly all powerful deity.

were i omnipotent, why wouldn't i give my creations some slight glimmer of proof to cement their faith? were i omnipresent, why would a small example of my presence be so out of the question? how could any caring being expect all for no apparent reason? if we are created in his image then we must contain some semblance of his mind and logic and this is totally illogical for a loving god.

i would love to have the blind faith needed for true belief, but i don't. it wouldn't take much in the way of proof to sway me, but i am given none. one of my few fears in life is that this god of yours does exist and that it is so apathetic that we would be better off without it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

love, trust, respect and obedience are not to be carelessly doled out, they are our most cherished feelings and must be earned or they become worthless.

if a man were to come to you and tell you that i created all things for you, would you respect and obey me? if a man were to tell you that i adored you above all others, would you love me? if a man were to attribute great deeds and miracles to me, would you respect me? no, of course not. if these men's words were collected and published, would you worship me and if you refused would i be justified in punishing you? yet all these things are expected of humanity by your supposedly all powerful deity.

were i omnipotent, why wouldn't i give my creations some slight glimmer of proof to cement their faith? were i omnipresent, why would a small example of my presence be so out of the question? how could any caring being expect all for no apparent reason? if we are created in his image then we must contain some semblance of his mind and logic and this is totally illogical for a loving god.

i would love to have the blind faith needed for true belief, but i don't. it wouldn't take much in the way of proof to sway me, but i am given none. one of my few fears in life is that this god of yours does exist and that it is so apathetic that we would be better off without it.

---

If you created me, and I rebelled against you... then yes, you would be justified in punishing me. And I don't believe there is no proof of God nor Christ. Perhaps you haven't recognized it yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I know this much, there is more to "seeing" then just our physical eyes.

Jesus tells a story in the Bible about a man who lived a life of disobedience and went to hell. In hell he cried out to God and begged for a drop of water and for one chance to see his family again, just for a minute, to warn them of what awaited them unless then turned back to God. Jesus' answer was that if his family did not turn to God from hearing the word of God, the Bible, which was available to them, then they wouldn't turn even if the dead were raised.

I don't understand why that is, but what he is saying is that people will always find a reason to believe whatever they want to believe. And the fact is, I know that is true. I've done it myself. We can talk ourselves into (or out of) anything that we want to. Our minds are extremely powerful, and can be extremely manipulative... even manipulating ourselves.

God's presence surrounds us every day. I never realized that until I became a Christian, but now I can't avoid it even if I want to. Besides that, there is immense historical "proof" of Christ's ressurection as well. Never in history have 12 men died for what they knew was a lie, at least not 12 men who had no financial gain from it or sexual gain or what have you. But that is exactly what happened with the disciples of Christ, the twelve Apostles. By all accounts these men did not gain riches, wives, land, or any of the things that plague so many religion's beginnings. These men believed in the ressurection so much they died for it, each and every one of them. That is history, not just a made up story.

They history of Christ himself gets a little more debated depending if the historian is a beleiver or not, which is expected given the moral implications and life changes each person has to face if he decides Christ really was God incarnate, and to be obeyed. But this much is obvious to me: Either Christ was the greatest con-man to ever have walked the planet, or He was the ressurected King of Kings his disciples claimed him to be. He was either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. This, "he was just a good guy with some good basic moral instructions" business doesn't fly with how his immediate disciples carried on the core tenants of the faith He preached to them, living and dying by them.

And after reading his word and praying to see the truth my spiritual eyes have seen who he really is. If yours haven't then I can't blame you for feeling that there is no proof. I used to feel the same way. My suggestion would be to read the New Testament, read some of the historical accounts of Christ, and then decide for yourself if you think he is who he said he was. By all means read and research other religions as well. But don't just give up on religion. For if the atheist position is right... then we all die and cease to exist... big deal. But if the biblical Christian perspective is the right one... then some of us are on a path no one would want to be on.

That's great! Thanks bro,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gmoneyapplesauce

I'm a very faithful person. I read scripture daily and I feel as if I'm with God all day.I believe in Biblical inerrancy. And I smoke almost everyday.

---