COAST TO COAST - AMERICANS ARE PROTESTING

COAST TO COAST - AMERICANS ARE PROTESTING
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/303743.shtml
author: Denny Burbeck
Email: dburbeck
Recently, I was involved in a project that required a visit to every
Independent Media Center in the country. I learned of an enormous
movement happening across the United States that literally astounded
me. There are protests and marches in every major city in
the country.
I looked for articles in my local newspaper and on TV.....and there was
nothing. These stories are found only on our network of IMCs, and
bless them, for they are all unpaid volunteers serving the people,
and trying to get the truth out - at a time when, we now know, the truth
is not an issue for the Major Media. For instance, did you hear
that in Chicago there were demonstrations for a solid week after the
Nov. 2 Election..........NO.

What follows is an incomplete compilation of stories on citizen
unrest from around the country. Most of them have fallen off the
Main News Column, but can still be accessed. New York City, for
instance, has post-election stories that go back 30 pages.

Most were non-violent protests, one in particular - Boise Idaho -
had a rally where everyone dressed in their best clothing and
carried signs reading "Leave no billionare behind".

Check each cities' IMC to read the full story.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tuscon - "Police made it a point to harass and supress an energetic
but peacefull march on Nov. 3."

Austin - "Hundreds of people gathered today in Austin to protest
the war waged by the US and the concession of George W. Bush
to a second term."

Baltimore - "People marched through downtown Baltimore
to voice their opposition to the results of the election...."

Boston - Several people expressed their embarrassment
before the rest of the world at the results of the election.
Amy Beth Dimasi said that she had come out, "because Bush
was not elected the first time. The fact that he's going to be
in office another four years . . . Right now, it's humiliating
to be considered an American."

Mass. - ......people gathered in Amherst, Northampton,
Springfield and in the Berkshires to voice their outrage,
shock and dismay at what may well turn out to be another
hi-jacking of a national election.

Amherst - Beginning at UMass... students and allies marched
to the downtown Common Nov. 9 for an anti-war, anti-racist
march.....

Buffalo - Rocks and bricks were thrown to shatter plate
glass windows at the GOP Party Headquarters on Delaware
Avenue in downtown Buffalo. A window was also shattered
at the Armed Forces Recruiting Office on Sheridan in the
town of Tonawanda and the lock to a back door was broken.

Chicago - Chicago Erupts in Week of Protest during the
Elections ..... the crowd erupted into the second unpermitted
street march as thousands paraded throughout downtown,
blocking traffic and confusing cops. "We want an end to all
US wars and occupations..."

DC - "Today we Marched Because the System is Rotten"

DC - Snake march through DC ....started at the White House
and kinda wandered all over down town.

Houston - ...demanding that the War Profiteers Halliburton
and KBR and the Bush regime be thrown out of our community
and out of office.

Boise - Billionaires for Bush Rally......Carrying signs
which read "Leave no Billionaire behind", "We can't thank
our President enough for contributing to our pocketsâ??er,
I mean economic growth in America."

L A - MARINE APCs APPEAR AT ANTI-WAR PROTEST
IN WESTWOOD...The APCs circled the block twice, the
second time parking themselves in the street and directly
in front of the area where most of the protesters were gathered.

L A - About 1,500 people met at Hollywood and Highland
and marched to the recruiting station at Sunset and LaBrea
to protest the occupation of Iraq and the stolen election.

Madison - Rally and March for Peace

Toledo - Hundreds of angry Ohio residents marched through
the streets of Columbusâ??Ohio'sCapitalâ??this evening and
stormed the Ohio State House....

Lansing - .....community members of Urbandale neighborhood,
were joined by MSU students... to protest the Bush regime,
occupation, and government.....

Milwaukee - ....a motley assemblage of the 'peace community':
liberals, church people, disgusted teenagers, environmentalists,
anarcho-syndicalists, and simple people of good will dismayed
at the way things turned out.

Maine - .......activists fought off wind, freezing rain, and
a pressing chill as they stood outside of Bath Iron Works
to witness and protest the launching of the 47th Aegis
Destroyer built by the US government.

Vermont - .....people took to the streets in disgust today in
response to the presidential election which put George W.
Bush into power for his second term.

New Jersey - Activists picket the Paterson "Army of One"
office in downtown Paterson.

New Jersey - NJ Solidarity members joined the weekly protest
organized by Inclusive Democracy at the "Army Career
Center". The protest is small, but persistent.

NYC - 500, 000 people filled blocks of Seventh Avenue in NYC....
filing past Madison Square Garden to express dissent towards the
Republican Party.

NYC - Protests, Scattered Violence Mark Bush 'Victory'

NYC - ....NYPD harassment of Crticial Mass escalated last night,
with reports that between 33 and 47 people were arrested.

NYC - There was a protest this evening at Union Square Park.
Apparently, the protesters were surrounded by NYPD with M-16s.

NYC - A contingent of anti-war veterans marching in the official
city Veterans Day parade found a very favorable response.....

Raliegh - .... attacked North Carolina Republican
Party headquarters late Friday, leaving behind minor smoke
damage, broken windows and vulgar messages, authorities said.

Albany - ....a demonstration with perhaps 100 people in
Red Hook were attacked by police....

Columbus - Around 150-200 people marched from the
Federal Building back to the state Capitol Building and
sat and protested on the front steps of the Capitol Building.

Dallas - ....a Dallas-based activist group met a wall
of police and security as they attempted to
pass literature to the speakers of a conference on
globalization and to rally against the conference.

Dallas - Protestors Swamp SMU Bush Rally

Philadelphia - Following the rally, a spontaneous march
erupted into the streets of Philadelphia.

Pittsburgh - ...march through Squirrel Hill despite chilling
police repression and rain.

Portland - activists held back-to-back demonstrations in an
unprecedented week of action for peace and justice.

Portland - There were three arrests today, two at the start of
the rally at Pioneer Sq. and one under the Burnside Bridge......

Portland - .......police using pepper spray to disperse protesters
on November 3rd.

Richmond - Participants wore red to symbolize the fact that
democracy in this country is in extreme danger.

Rochester - Rocks and bricks were thrown to shatter plate
glass windows at the GOP Party Headquarters..........

San Diego - .....people turned up to voice their re-affirmation of
their absolute rejection of the war on Iraq.

San Fransisco - ....a rally and civil disobedience at the San Francisco
Federal Building....

Seattle - .....protesters marched from Western Washington University
today to protest the occupation and the elections in general.

Seattle - Over 1,000 people gathered in downtown Seattle to protest
Bush's war in Iraq.

Lawrence - ....activists marched ....in protest of the current invasion of
Fallujah. Local police accosted activists.........
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/303743.shtml


My Best to You and Yours,

Ed Ward, MD,
Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
Founder, LSMP, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LSMP/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
https://www.quickbase.com/db/99r7qj9...sineConsulting (Class action lawsuit state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisi...rightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/ [Louisiana Civil Rights Council Message Board]
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

FAIR USE NOTICE This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

The news services are controlled by the same societies that control the governemnt.
What can we expect..............

Peace

Wow! It's enormous! What a grand protest this is. There are hundreds of people in the streets that are protesting bushy. Wait a minute, hundreds? Hell, thats not even huge. That's more like tiny. I'm thinking this is nothing more then a ploy to gain support for a failing cause. If others think the cause is going well, then maybe they too will join the cause. If you will look at the bottom of the page the link takes you to, you will see that it is inspiring to others to hear of protest's. If you add in that indymedia is a propaganda outlet on par with cnn, fox, and the rest, then you have to wonder what the truth really is. The truth is that if Seattle can only manage to get a 1000 people to show up to a protest, then there is no enormous protest going on. Some times I wonder about which side leads the public more, Bushy, or the people against him.

Toker

Over 16,000 Converge at Fort Benning to Protest SOA
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/304119.shtml

author: SOA Watch e-mail: [email protected]

Many Scale Barbed-Wire Fences and are Arrested While Calling for Closure of US Army's School of the Americas

"Welcome to Fort Benning" Sign Redecorated on 11-21-04
Columbus, GA - Over 16,000 people from across the Americas?including actors Martin Sheen and Susan Sarandon?gathered this weekend outside the gates of Ft. Benning, Georgia in the most diverse demonstration yet of opposition to the School of the Americas (SOA), a combat-training school for Latin American soldiers. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refuge by graduates of the SOA, renamed in 2001 the Western Hempishere Institute for Security Cooperation or WHINSEC.

The gathering culminated today with a solemn "funeral" procession to the gates of Fort Benning led by actor Martin Sheen. As of 4 PM, at least 20 people had been arrested in acts of nonviolent civil disobedience, many negotiating a 10-foot-high barbed-wire fence to enter the base. They took this action despite knowing they likely face 3-6 months in federal prison. Since protests against the SOA/WHINSEC began fourteen years ago, 170 people have served prison sentences of up to 2 years for civil disobedience.

"Prison will not deter us," said Elizabeth Nadeau, who was among those arrested today. "We will be here until we close the school and change the foreign policy that it represents." Nadeau, 27, is a student and member of the Steelworkers Union in Minneapolis, MN.

SOA/ WHINSEC graduates return to their countries to utilize their training domestically and are consistently cited for atrocities against their own people. New research introduced by SOA Watch earlier this year confirms that the school has continued to support known human rights abusers. Despite having been investigated by the United Nations for ordering the shooting of 16 indigenous peasants in El Salvador, a massacre recorded in the US State Department's Human Rights Record Country Reports, Col. Francisco del Cid Diaz returned to WHINSEC in 2003.

"Like many of its graduates, this school continues to operate with impunity," said Carlos Mauricio, torture survivor, plaintiff in a successful lawsuit against two Salvadoran Generals living in the US and a featured speaker this weekend. "Shutting down the SOA once and for all would send a strong human rights message to Latin America and the world."

Thousands of college students, labor unions, faith-based communities, torture survivors, immigrant organizations and numerous human rights groups gathered together to make this weekend's demonstration the largest and most diverse yet for SOA Watch, which has held a vigil at the gates of Fort Benning every November since 1990.

homepage: http://www.SOAW.org
phone: 202-234-3440

My Best to You and Yours,

Ed Ward, MD,
Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
Founder, LSMP, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LSMP/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
https://www.quickbase.com/db/99r7qj9...sineConsulting (Class action lawsuit state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisi...rightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/ [Louisiana Civil Rights Council Message Board]
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
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FAIR USE NOTICE This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

"Watch, which has held a vigil at the gates of Fort Benning every November since 1990."

It's a yearly show for extreme liberals, not a real protest. It's like a fair including stars and other such attractions. Yep, I can see where this is proof of an enormous outburst of anti-war protesting. Truth is where your success is. Look for the real truth, not just what you want to hear. Sometimes the truth goes against you. Hiding from it will not save you from it.

Toker

The post has nothing to do with anti- Iraq War. It is a protest against this government. But, it seems you do not want pesky facts to interfere with BS. Outside of your not even knowing what is being protested by them and various other BS, why would you want to degrade activism? Multiple arrests each year, but, it's a fair. Right. So now that we have examined your "facts" (unsubstantiated BS), WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DEGRADE ACTIVISM? What is gained by that approach, unless you support the fascism of this governement. Either way, thanks for "showing" your grasp of the facts. Lol, anti war. Come to the "get arrested booth" of next years SOA "fair".

TR E WAR, III

Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
Founder, LSMP, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LSMP/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
https://www.quickbase.com/db/99r7qj9...sineConsulting (Class action lawsuit state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisi...rightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/ [Louisiana Civil Rights Council Message Board]
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

FAIR USE NOTICE This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

"It is a protest against this government."

Then why do you include protests against the war in your enormous claim? You might want to read what they are protesting in your original post again. Seems your wrong when it comes to that, and this reply is about the military, war, and the like also. In more ways then one. And yes, I consider them anti-war protesters. As for it being anti-iraq war protesters, I'll just have to take your word for it on that as I never made the distinction. I'm thinking your grasp of the facts is so off because you don't mind em that way. Even if it is pointed out to you, you cling to your BS like it was gold or some kind of word of a god or something that couldn't be wrong ever.

"The post has nothing to do with anti- Iraq War. It is a protest against this government. But, it seems you do not want pesky facts to interfere with BS. Outside of your not even knowing what is being protested by them and various other BS,"

"Lawrence - ....activists marched ....in protest of the current invasion of
Fallujah. Local police accosted activists......... "

"Seattle - Over 1,000 people gathered in downtown Seattle to protest
Bush's war in Iraq."

"San Diego - .....people turned up to voice their re-affirmation of
their absolute rejection of the war on Iraq."

"why would you want to degrade activism?"

I am not degrading activism, it's dissinformation that I don't like.

"Multiple arrests each year, but, it's a fair."

You have a right to protest peacefully, not to destroy everything in sight, and act like laws don't appy to you.

"So now that we have examined your "facts" (unsubstantiated BS), "

Just because you have some words from a propaganda outlet does not mean your holding the truth. I am giving you my opinion on the post you made. Do opposing opinions bother you?

"WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DEGRADE ACTIVISM?"

Didn't you say that once already? Geez dude, your like a cop at a protest yelling, "why do you want to degrade this wonderfull country"! When you post something in a public place such as this, not everyone will agree with you. Yelling and repeating yourself will not make anyone believe you, or prove that your right.

"What is gained by that approach, unless you support the fascism of this governement."

How about truth? That could be gained. Of course if your only interested in the activism, and not the truth of the matter, then I guess a few little white lie's wouldn't hurt nothing, right?

"Either way, thanks for "showing" your grasp of the facts. Lol, anti war. Come to the "get arrested booth" of next years SOA "fair"."

Held at Ft Benning, A military training center. You right though, it's not like a fair, it's a circus. It's like a side show at the circus.

Your anger at my not believing in your cause must mean I hit a nerve with what I said. Usualy that means you know what the truth really is, and knowing that is whats really got you so fired up like that. People tend to get angery when you show them they are wrong about something. Some don't, but a lot of them do.

Toker

You quote from an article not being addressed. The below is the article being addressed. That is the article you originally quoted as a fair, but, your rebuttal is about another post. Yep, truth is what you are looking for all right. Just more BS.

So you are saying that those events did not happen? I repeated it because you still do not address it except in BS.

Where is the truth you claim is missing in these demonstrations. Hey, how about finding another post, doesnt even have to be from me, then you can use that one to respond.

TR E WAR, II


"Watch, which has held a vigil at the gates of Fort Benning every November since 1990."

It's a yearly show for extreme liberals, not a real protest. It's like a fair including stars and other such attractions. Yep, I can see where this is proof of an enormous outburst of anti-war protesting. Truth is where your success is. Look for the real truth, not just what you want to hear. Sometimes the truth goes against you. Hiding from it will not save you from it.

Toker

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#4 Nov-21-2004, 23:37
Ed Ward MD
Registered Join Date: Sep-14-2004
Location: New Orleans, LA, 70119
Posts: 190


Over 16,000 Converge at Fort Benning to Protest SOA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over 16,000 Converge at Fort Benning to Protest SOA
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/304119.shtml

author: SOA Watch e-mail: [email protected]

Many Scale Barbed-Wire Fences and are Arrested While Calling for Closure of US Army's School of the Americas

individual protest. Just the fact they were happening. Dismissed by you because there were no "huge" numbers. Then, 16k with well known personalities in participation with arrests described as a "fair". Then you post from a message not being addressed. Then you want to claim "truth" based on factless BS. He Larry Us.

TR E WAR

"You quote from an article not being addressed."

I see you can not comprehend what you read. Read what I said again man, and try to actualy open your eyes this time. Your grasping at something extremely small and trying to shift attention away from the fact that your protests, anti-war or not, are nothing even close to the exagerated claims of your oringinal thread starting post. Nor does your posting another protest later thats been a circus for many years, help to show that your protest is "enormous".

Your kind of tripping out over nothing. Your posts, both of them in this thread that your talking about, the original post, and the later reply with 16,000 protesters you think means something, both claim they are protesting military action. Are you trying to act like you don't know this, or do you really not get it? Open your eyes and look at the stuff you posted in this thread. It is anti-war protesting that is going on in them. Now maybe you can explain to me the importence of you not wanting to say there are anti-war protesters at your protests, when clearly there is? I would be willing to bet there are anti-war protesters at each and every one of your protests. So what!

" So you are saying that those events did not happen?"

Nope, I'm saying every little thing they could scrape up was used to make people like you think there was some kind of enormous movment out there. It's called propaganda. Unlike you, I didn't fall for it. I understand that there are propaganda outlets from all sides. I sometimes think some people believe one side is being truthfull while the other is all lies. It's sad that they can't see that both side are lying to them.

"Where is the truth you claim is missing in these demonstrations."

Not at your propaganda outlet, that much is for sure.

Your just really angry that I would have the nerve to question you, and that is clouding your judgement. Calm down a little and you might actualy see what it is your falling for.

Toker

show enormous, large or even huge in any of my posts (only 1 reference and that is to your response in saying huge). didn't even look at the rest of your BS. Start with a lie i have no use for the post.

title of article
COAST TO COAST - AMERICANS ARE PROTESTING

Please show anywhere I said anything about numbers of protesters. JUST IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER. It is not my post. I did not name it. BUT, SHOW ME WHERE WHAT IS STATED IS NOT TRUE. Stop shifting address of what you state. SHOW ME WHERE WHAT IS STATED IS NOT TRUE, not some BS about what you think it means. Don't need your opinion. I have one. Give me facts on which to base an opinion.

Please write as many posts as possible starting with a lie. They are so easy to be shown as BS.

TR E WAR, III

"show enormous, large or even huge in any of my posts "

"I learned of an enormous movement happening across the United States that literally astounded me. There are protests and marches in every major city in
the country."

That came from your first copy paste propaganda post. It's to bad that you don't read what you post, it might save people a lot of time explaining things to you if you did read them.

Toker

I is not ME. I is the originator of the post I transported. And yes, you are correct, I do not usually pay much attention to what someone's opinion is in a factual post. I just look at the facts. I go through hundreds of posts a day. Enourmous movement does not relate to individual numbers as I see it, but to the geography involved. Where is the benefit of BS over one word of a post that shows that thousands (in total) are protesting AND THERE IS NO CORPORATE COVERAGE OF THESE EVENTS. That is and was the point of the post. Not some BS over the word "enormous" in "enormous movement". Where is the benefit? Geographically, it is enormous. He states nothing of Billions or millions or any numbers, JUST GEOGRAPHY. Yet, the only thing you gained from the post was. "THIS POST IS NOT HUGE NUMBERS." Yep, thats real supportive activism. How is this post propaganda? WHAT IS STATED IS FACTUAL. Give me some facts and not a 30 second BS post on something that has "huge" factual information dismissed as some BS opinion on what was not even stated in the article.

TR E WAR, III

If we are to take for the criterion of truth the majority of suffrages, they ought to be gotten from those philosophic and patriotic citizens who cultivate their reason. U.S. president. Madison to Benjamin Rush, March 7, 1790. W.T. Hutchinson et al., The Papers of James Madison, vol. 13, pp. 93-94, Chicago and Charlottesville, Virginia (1962-1991). Subject: Government - Suffrage

And yet you claim to be a LIBERTARIAN? pisshead on you fascist. What's that...Below Me? :eek:

TR E WAR, III :cool:

At least ToeRag shows his republo fascism, he at least does not hide his fascism under the guise of liberty. :confused:

"How is this post propaganda? WHAT IS STATED IS FACTUAL."

I figure you don't really understand the nature of propaganda that well if you think it has to be a lie. Stretching the truth out of proportion is one of many of propagandas ugly forms. They are decieving you with words on a web site that you believe is truth, even though you have know way to know what the real truth is. You blindly believe them, and I think mainly because they post words on a web site. That seems to be all it takes for you to believe. Just because things are wrote down on web site doesn't make them real. Read up on the tactics of propaganda. Then go to indymedia and tell me it is not a propaganda outlet. I know people like you like to think your saving the world, but really your just part of the same thing thats been going on for a very long time. Protesting is nothing new, and your list of protests is nothing more then what normaly goes on. Do you know what a band wagon is?

"the post I transported."

You mean the propaganda you copy pasted?

"I do not usually pay much attention to what someone's opinion is in a factual post. I just look at the facts."

The fact is that you fell for some pretty lame propaganda. If you were to look at just the facts, you would have to have been at every one of the so called protests. Since your getting your facts from a biased and known propagada outlet, I doubt that you truely know any of the real facts.

"I go through hundreds of posts a day."

Really? Wow, your a hell of guy to read that much propaganda in one day. Man, you must know everything by now, or you think you do anyway. It doesn't matter if you read a million pieces of propaganda if they are all BS. You will have still learned nothing but what your programers wanted you to.

"Enourmous movement does not relate to individual numbers as I see it, but to the geography involved."

Oh, I get it now. If a couple of people show up in LA and a few in New York, then because of how far they are from each other it would be considered an enormous protest. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Like you, I find it hard to believe a post that starts out leading you with a lie. You propaganda that you transported said the movment was enormous. I believe that to be a false and missleading statement. You have not proved to me otherwise yet.

"Where is the benefit of BS over one word of a post that shows that thousands (in total) are protesting AND THERE IS NO CORPORATE COVERAGE OF THESE EVENTS. "

Freedom of speech is a wonderfull thing, isn't it? Why do you get so angry at dissent? You seem to think I should just keep my mouth shut and let you propagate with your BS without having anyone say bad things about your message. I see your BS for what it is, if you don't like my commenting on it, tough shit for you.

"Yet, the only thing you gained from the post was. "THIS POST IS NOT HUGE NUMBERS.""

Well, I guess you gained that there is a huge movement taking hold of the US.

" Yep, thats real supportive activism."

Why should I support something I think is BS? What, am I supposed to support any old activism that comes along just because it gets labeled as activism? I don't think I have ever heard that one before. I have to be supportive of activism, even if I think it is BS. Wow, that kind of logic is amazing!

"Give me some facts and not a 30 second BS post on something that has "huge" factual information"

Give you facts? Hell, I was still waiting to see your facts. Where are they, I haven't seen anything but some words off a web site. Is that what you call fact? Have you ever tried to check out some of indymedias claims? I have. One inparticular is the "prison camp" BS. I went to several of the locations they listed, and came away empty handed. Nothing there but BS. A few thousand people spred out over the US, is nothing. Do you know what the population of the US is? 300,000,000!

"dismissed as some BS opinion on what was not even stated in the article."

I think your a little confused here and there. You seem to read an awfull lot into stuff that is not there.

"you fascist"

It's clear you have lost confidence in your arguement if you have to resort to things like this. But I'm game, what is it about me that makes me a fascist to you? Is it the fact that I dissagree with you? I think it is just that.

Toker

Sorry, anything that is true is not propaganda. Anything true or false may be said to be propaganda according to your definition. For no one writes anything without a reason or cause. All information on pot would be propaganda also?

Defining Propaganda:
http://www.historians.org/Projects/G...ropaganda8.htm

So yes, since everything is propaganda according to your definition then yes, it's propaganda.

If we are to take for the criterion of truth the majority of suffrages, they ought to be gotten from those philosophic and patriotic citizens who cultivate their reason. U.S. president. Madison to Benjamin Rush, March 7, 1790. W.T. Hutchinson et al., The Papers of James Madison, vol. 13, pp. 93-94, Chicago and Charlottesville, Virginia (1962-1991). Subject: Government - Suffrage
More propaganda according to Libertarian Toker

And yet you claim to be a LIBERTARIAN? pisshead on you fascist. What's that...Below Me? :eek:

TR E WAR, III :cool:

At least ToeRag shows his republo fascism, he at least does not hide his fascism under the guise of liberty. :confused:

And the problem of defining propaganda is all the more tangled because in the first World War it acquired certain popular meanings that stick to it like burrs to a cocker spaniel.

To some speakers and writers, propaganda is an instrument of the devil. They look on the propagandist as a person who is deliberately trying to hoodwink us, who uses half-truths, who lies, who suppresses, conceals, and distorts the facts. According to this idea of the word, the propagandist plays us for suckers.

Facts are not propaganda. Feel free to play word games all you want. Meanwhile, if you do not support equality, constitutional rights and exposure of facts to the public. You are a fascist not a libertarian.

TR E WAR, III

"Meanwhile, if you do not support equality, constitutional rights and exposure of facts to the public. You are a fascist not a libertarian."

Well it's a good thing I support those things ain't it? Now why do you think I am a fascist again? What are the facts that say I am a fascist? If you only use fact, then you must have some that says I am a fascist, right? Please, if I am a fascist I would like to know about it, so if you could make the facts known it would sure help in this matter.

"Sorry, anything that is true is not propaganda."

Your wrong on that. You have not a clue to the meaning of the word propaganda if you think that truth can not be used as propaganda. Nor do you know that your facts are really true or not. Your assuming that they are facts in the first place. You have not tried to verify them to me or yourself. Your going on what you have been told is fact. Is it really? Can you prove what it says in your copy paste is true? Just like with major media, there are people controling what you read from the so called Independent media also. I know it is hard for you to understand, but you should at least try to understand that just because it is on a web site you like doesn't make it true.

Here is a good site, and a few more for you also. I suggest you read up on it.

http://www.globalissues.org/HumanRig...a/Military.asp

http://www.propagandacritic.com/

Military
http://www.psywarrior.com/FM33-1.html

Propaganda Tactics & Fahrenheit 9/11
http://www.workingpsychology.com/fahrenheit.html

http://rhetorica.net/propaganda.htm
"Propaganda is a systematic propagation of a doctrine, ideology, or idea of value to the speaker. I think the key word in that definition is "systematic." Merely stating an ideology or doctrine does not constitute propaganda. The ideology or doctrine must be spread through a system of communication events with the long-term goal of getting the audience to adopt a new way of thinking.

The term is often used pejoratively to describe attempts to move public opinion in a way, or to a position, that the critic doesn't like. One person's propaganda is another's cogent discourse. We should, however, put a finer point on the definition. We may evaluate a messages as propaganda when we detect that the speaker is trying to deceive more than to persuade (understanding that this, too, is a judgment call)..

One of the ways propaganda may be identified is through the systematic use of these common fallacies:

Ad Hominem: This is argument "against the person," also known as "name-calling." This fallacy signals propaganda when it is used to label people in order to box them off into categories. For example, always using the adjective "arch" before the noun "conservative" is often a sign of a systematic intent to stereotype the individual so described.
Either/or: This is the fallacy that there are only two positions in a given argument or only two approaches to a given situation. Life is more complicated than such simplistic dichotomies lead us to believe.
Ad Populum: This is argument "to the people," in which the speaker appeals to mass emotions. This fallacy often requires the use of generalized or abstract terms that have more emotional appeal than substance, e.g. patriotism, socialism, motherhood, radical, public-spirited. A related fallacy is called the "bandwagon," in which the speaker appeals to the audience's desire to be part of a particular group.
Transference: The speaker uses the thoughts of a venerable or symbolic figure to bolster a contemporary position, e.g. claiming that George Washington would have approved of a certain "bipartisan" maneuver because he warned against the dangers of faction (party).
Stacking the Deck: One stacks the deck when he/she leaves out relevant information, tells half-truths, exaggerates, or otherwise tampers with the facts. We often see this technique used in the presenting of statistics and polling results.
Opinion as Fact: The danger of stating opinion as fact is most acute when the propagandist is making a report of an observed event and using adjectives or adverbs to spin the observations, e.g. "The candidate spoke convincingly about his tax program."

Bandwagon

"The propagandist hires a hall, rents radio stations, fills a great stadium, marches a million or at least a lot of men in a parade. He employs symbols, colors, music, movement, all the dramatic arts. He gets us to write letters, to send telegrams, to contribute to his cause. He appeals to the desire, common to most of us, to follow the crowd. Because he wants us to follow the crowd in masses, he directs his appeal to groups held together already by common ties, ties of nationality, religion, race, sex, vocation. Thus propagandists campaigning for or against a program will appeal to us as Catholics, Protestants, or Jews...as farmers or as school teachers; as housewives or as miners.

With the aid of all the other propaganda devices, all of the artifices of flattery are used to harness the fears and hatreds, prejudices and biases, convictions and ideals common to a group. Thus is emotion made to push and pull us as members of a group onto a Band Wagon." (Institute for Propaganda Analysis, 1938)

The basic theme of the Band Wagon appeal is that "everyone else is doing it, and so should you." Since few of us want to be left behind, this technique can be quite successful. However, as the IPA points out, "there is never quite as much of a rush to climb onto the Band Wagon as the propagandist tries to make us think there is." When confronted with this technique, it may be helpful to ask ourselves the following questions:

What is this propagandist's program?
What is the evidence for and against the program?
Regardless of the fact that others are supporting this program, should I support it?
Does the program serve or undermine my individual and collective interests?

http://www.propagandacritic.com/arti...bandwagon.html

Please define some more words for me. Your word activism is awesome.

TR E WAR, III

If we are to take for the criterion of truth the majority of suffrages, they ought to be gotten from those philosophic and patriotic citizens who cultivate their reason. U.S. president. Madison to Benjamin Rush, March 7, 1790. W.T. Hutchinson et al., The Papers of James Madison, vol. 13, pp. 93-94, Chicago and Charlottesville, Virginia (1962-1991). Subject: Government - Suffrage
More propaganda according to Libertarian Toker

TR E WAR, III

What is it that your trying to do with your copy/paste posts?

Toker

"Propaganda is a systematic propagation of a doctrine, ideology, or idea of value to the speaker. I think the key word in that definition is "systematic." Merely stating an ideology or doctrine does not constitute propaganda. The ideology or doctrine must be spread through a system of communication events with the long-term goal of getting the audience to adopt a new way of thinking."

I like that discription of propaganda better then yours.

Toker

It's all propaganda.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please define some more words for me. Your word activism is awesome.

TR E WAR, III

Giles County, VA -- One Virginian activist, Niklan Jones-Lezama, is believed dead and another, Sue Daniels, is missing.
http://richmond.indymedia.org/featur...8558/index.php

On Saturday, Niklan's body was found by a search party of friends within a few hundred yards of Sue's cabin outside of Blacksburg. This past Thursday, Sue's cabin had been burned to the ground in an apparent act of arson. Sue and Niklan's two cars were found parked outside the charred remains of the building. The badly burned remains of what is believed to be a dog were found inside.

Both Nik and Sue were active around varous social justice issues, such as opposing war in the Middle East, oppression in Central America, and violent mountaintop removal in Appalachia. The two were in their forties and spent several months in federal prison last year due to their participation in the annual School of the Americas protests in Georgia. These annual SOA protests coincidentally occurred this past weekend. The last time people report seeing Niklan was when he was due to leave to attend the protests 5 a.m. on Thursday.

This photo features both Sue and Nik leading a procession into their 2002 trial for protesting the SOA in 2001.

Arson sparks search for missing 2
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke%5C14120.html

Blacksburg social activists listed as missing following suspected arson
http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv%5C14165.html

Body found near fire site
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke%5C14239.html

OMG! Do you think the missing one may be the killer? Wow, professional protesters are some strange people, are they not? Maybe the government had them killed! It's a conspiracy I tell ya. They were a threat of some sort to the governemt, so they got the axe. Or wait, maybe the girl killed the guy because he changed his mind and wanted to support the war? No, wait, is that place close to where Jason hangs out? Did any one hear dueling banjos close by? I hope you will keep me informed on this. I would really like to know what actualy happened.

Toker

It's all propaganda.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please define some more words for me. Your word activism is awesome.

TR E WAR, III

My Best to You, Yours, Equality and Constitutional Rights,

Ed Ward, MD,
Founder, LA-CRC, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/
Founder, LSMP, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LSMP/
edward19(at)cox.net (at) = @ (for the @ crawlers) my email.
http://thepriceofliberty.org/ward.htm
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/louisi...rightscouncil/ (LA state info)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LA-CRC/ [Louisiana Civil Rights Council Message Board]
Learn about your Family and Individual Constitutional Rights and this governments Constitutional Restrictions and Vote.
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Whether the numbers are big or small, it's still a pleasant reassurance that there are even protests going on. The fact they are suppressed within the media almost surprises me. :(

Nice thread Ed!!

That indeed was the reason for the thread, no media coverage to bolster the ranks of demonstrations. I was, quite frankly, surprised that anyone here at a site of oppression would denegrade those actions or fact they are not being reported. But, the more I spread facts, the more surprises I find.

My Best to You, Yours, Equality and Constitutional Rights,

Ed