Some of my issues with "intelligent design."

I don't mean this as an attack on anybody for holding such beliefs, but I do bleieve it's essential to give serious and logical consideration to both sides of such a claim. It's nobody's "fault" for holding beliefs for or against god, but merely their belief that their reasoning is sound, is what's faulty. That being said...


INTELLIGENT DESIGN:

Before considering intelligent design, also consider this; does it not seem a bit suspicious to you that that we carry SO many behavioral similarities to all the lower species, almost as if we're related (IE. evolution). When dolphin's reach the equivilant of their teen years, they often leave the pack temporily with other teenage dolphins and go to other dolpin packs. There they form friendships with other teenage dolphins, they often pick fights with the other teenagers, and often screw the teenage girls from that pack.
Look at kids, especially in high school. They act just like animals in the pack mentality. I remember how all the boys were constantly trying to vye for dominance, picking fights with the weaker ones to secure their dominance over them, fighting the stronger ones to climb the dominance ladder. This is even more prevelant in prison societies.
Puberty: pretty much every complex organism goes through a stage of sexual developement similar to puberty, whether it be boys turning into men, or tadpoles turning into frogs.
Flirting. Have you ever seen a dog or a gorilla try to strut his stuff in front of a female to impress her, show off his masculinity and strength, and often be shot down by the less-than-impressed female? I've seen dogs do the EXACT same thing that guys do in bars, and the same goes for every animal that fights for a female.

Not to metion our genetics. We share 99.95% of our genetic code with neanderthal's (where do all these sub-genus version of humans fall into the bible anyway?). We share 98.5% of the genetic code with monkeys, just a coincidence I suppose, even though genetic codes have billions upon billions of pieces of informaiton. In fact every species on earth, including plant life, has a certain degree of their genetic code that's shared with everything else.

Mammals: We, like it or not, are mammals. There are tonnes of species on this planet who "coincidentially" fall into the same genetic family as us, that being mamilian. We, like so many animals, all have mamary glands (breasts) and use them to feed our offspring. We nurture, care for, and protect them in much the same way as every other mammal.

Dinosaurs: I'm not really sure how they'd fall into the 6,000 year old earth claimed by many creationists. Many people make silly claims like "the great flood wore them down quickly and made them look older". That simply doesn't work. We don't test the age of dinosaur, and MANY other and older fossil's by by "looking" at them and guessing their age, we use carbon dating and a couple other methods I forgot at the moment. Carbon dating measures the rate of radiological decay within the carbon-based lifeform, and the rate of decay is 100% consistent. The life-span of radiological decay can be measured up to 500 million years.

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Now in considering intelligent design, and the desigh behind it:


Such a logical answer to our complexity isn't it? It always struck me as odd that in god's "intelligent design", he would create the vastly varried plethora of diseases we have today. I mean he couldn't just create one, or a huge variety of diseases that efficiently and relatively painlessly kill us. Instead he had to create the Ebola virus, where you liquify your organs and shit them out; AIDS, where you can fall victim to any number of infections and suffer for years; cancer, just to endure the pain and slow degrading of your body for weeks/months/years before death; the common cold... you know, just for some inconvenient and needless suffering; ecoli or salmonela, for several days of horrible stomach pain, diarhea, nausea, and I'm sure a few more that you have a good chance of surviving anyway....

But not just the foreign invaders of course. Apparently god saw it fit to design my body to have permanent and intense neurological pain that couldn't be fixed and we still can't find an answer to, other than a couple specific injuries from 5 years ago that have long since healed. This all happened when I had strong faith in the lord btw. My little brother, who's a really good kid, for some reason has to endure aspergers and all the social and psychological problems that go with that. My dad gets the fun of diabetes, not sure what the point is there....

And while we're at it, lets not forget mosquito's! God just woke up in a bad mood on the 6th day I guess, and decided to just make us all really itchy. The only other function carried out by mosquito's of course, is to arbitrarily spread malaria and kill millions of people every year.

Poisonous snakes? well I guess that's just the leftover from god turning, um... how did it go again? It seems Satan turned into a legged snake in the garden of eden, then after all his doings god punished him by taking away the snakes legs.... even though Satan only took the form of a snake, and there are clearly thousands of varriations of snake, and Satan was clearly banished to hell as his punishment.... well maybe they're just poisonous for the heck of it. Lets face it, the story of Adam and Eve sounds no more credible or logical than any piece of mythology about thor or poseidon.

Our reproductive systems:

- Why are women designed with a reproductive system that requires at least 4 days of severe menstrual cramps, bleeding through the vagina, and awful mood swings? Don't even trying feeding me that chauvinistic crap about punishing ALL women for the supposed crimes of eve. It seems a recurring theme in the bible is punishing hundreds of generations of decendents for the crimes of their anscestors. Sounds like primitive thinking of an ancient day to me.

- Boys: why is that when they go through puberty and have their voices "break" every so often during the maturity process? God just thought it would be funny to have friends/classmates laugh at them at awkward times?

- why must our balls be so delicate?

- Why must sex on the first time be so painfull for girls?

- why are there sexually transmitted diseases that are incredibly painfull and/or itchy, but don't kill? Is there a purpose there?


Why did god make Earth such an isufficient size to withstand our innevitable exhaustion of resources and pulluting of the planet? Free will or no, god would have seen it coming, and he could have made the Earth a LOT larger and with more adundant resources.

Wisdom Teeth: Those damn painfull teeth that grow at the back of our jaw, don't have enough to room to flourish, and generally get in the way. Wisdom teeth serve no purpose other than to help dentists make a living, and are certainly not suited to the homosapien body. It's almost as if.... I don't know, they were left over from an ascestor that we evolved from who had a wider jaw (we've found plenty of fossil's of such).


Though unfortunately, it seems if a person is entirely devoted to their faith, no amount of arguments, no matter how perfect or logical, will sway them. The entire premise of faith is to put desire before logic, to convince yourself so thoroughly that blind faith is an attribute, that to even consider otherwise would be a crime against god. And so any arguments to the contrary are readily dismissed and not seriously considered. But as I came to think about my faith as I got older, I felt compelled to ask questions and believed that if god really did exist, he could easily stand up to any and all challenges to his existence.

"faith", to me, is the ultimate insult to human intelligence. That's not to say a person cannot have faith and be intelligent, but it is nontheless a means of instilling devotion in the mind so powerfully that it disallows one from considering the logic behind it.

inquiring minds want to know huh?

actually it's a pretty nice list D.

Mr Devious ... you couldnt have explained this any better ... I concur ... how old are you btw?

i consider "intelligent design" to be just another ploy made by the chruche to garner more potential donaters and/or church goers. they parade it around as science but it is just another sneaky attempt to infiltrate schools and bypass the seperation of church and state

u give plenty of logical reasons for intelligent design but i have yet to see real proof of long term evolution resulting in us coming from apes

therefore you are just the same as a "person of faith" that u mention....it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to doubt it....nothing has been proven

keep in mind, when it comes down to it, i believe in evolution...i say belive because if there was real proof of evolution then there wouldnt be any creationists left because the decision would be obvious

u listed alot of evidence that is pro evolution just like many creationists can list evidence against intelligent design...evidence and proof are not the same thing

i hate to play devils advocate but i hate when people single out people because of faith and faith alone when in reality every1 who is for intelligent design in the end, is going on faith too...including me

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

u give plenty of logical reasons for intelligent design but i have yet to see real proof of long term evolution resulting in us coming from apes

therefore you are just the same as a "person of faith" that u mention....it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to doubt it....nothing has been proven

keep in mind, when it comes down to it, i believe in evolution...i say belive because if there was real proof of evolution then there wouldnt be any creationists left because the decision would be obvious

u listed alot of evidence that is pro evolution just like many creationists can list evidence against intelligent design...evidence and proof are not the same thing

i hate to play devils advocate but i hate when people single out people because of faith and faith alone when in reality every1 who is for intelligent design in the end, is going on faith too...including me

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there is plenty of proof.
we can see a miniaturized version of evolution by watching the influenza virus. we need a new innoculation every few years and why? because it evolves a resistance to the present vaccine.

i am amazed, but one thing i must point out, the AIDS virus from what i have heard was actually man made or so it seems to me i'll see if i can find my sources brb.

Stemis,
You hit the nail right on the head.

Mr. Devious chooses to put his faith in man, and I choose to put mine in God.
You can try as hard as you like, but you will NEVER prove God wrong. It's not possible.

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

u give plenty of logical reasons for intelligent design but i have yet to see real proof of long term evolution resulting in us coming from apes

therefore you are just the same as a "person of faith" that u mention....it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to doubt it....nothing has been proven

keep in mind, when it comes down to it, i believe in evolution...i say belive because if there was real proof of evolution then there wouldnt be any creationists left because the decision would be obvious

u listed alot of evidence that is pro evolution just like many creationists can list evidence against intelligent design...evidence and proof are not the same thing

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I always like to point this out,

In science evolution is considered FACT.

as well evolution isn't a theory saying that organisms changed and differentiated creating new theories.

evolution is an explanation as to WHY these things happened. there is no doubt that it has occurred, fossil records show it. Genetic rRNA maps show it.

PLEASE if you know any "logical" reasons to believe in creationism make a thread, i've never heard one. and i've looked good and hard 4 one.

i even made a thread asking for one, none came up. wonder why

also, he is arguing against intelligent design (i think you gots your terms mixed up). Intelligent design = creationism

as well, if you havenâ??t seen the evidence then you havent looked. if you are interested i can give you links.

But you are correct about one thing, there is a huge difference between evidence and proof. In science there isnâ??t proof, only evidence and disproving. This is the misunderstanding people have about science that allows creationists to make their arguments to the ignorant (no offence)

And I go on:

The only “Faith” one needs to believe in evolution is faith that we are observing reality. And faith that we are not being completely mislead in a similar fashion as in the Matrix.

I can understand that for you, someone who doesn’t know much about evolution, might have to accept it on faith. You say you only “believe” in it because some people don’t, so you assume they are speaking from reasonable footing.

What does that mean about people who believe that the white race is superior.
Nothing supports that, yet people believe it.

It is all related to the power of beliefs and our resistance to change them.

And… We didn’t evolve from apes. What happened, approximately:
Is that we share our origin with the apes. We both evolved from the same organism.
So at one time there was a big population of our ancestor, the population got divided some how and each sect went their separate ways. Then experienced different environmental stresses and turned out different after a few million years.


To muffinman:

As well, humans didn’t create the HIV virus… you should check your sources. Humans haven’t created Any virus it is far beyond our ability. WE can modify them, but we didn’t. HIV came from some species of Ape in Africa and it mutated and crossed over to humans.

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Mr. Devious chooses to put his faith in man, and I choose to put mine in God.

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Ah that old chestnut. Thing is, Evolution isn't strictly a matter of faith because it is supported by VAST amoungs of evidence, and most people don't understand or know of 1% of the evidence that exists. I'm no evolutionary biologist, but I have a friend who's a 3rd year science student and has explained quite a huge amount to me. As he pointed out "I've argued with creationists and I haven't heard from one that actually understood evolution, or how it works. Every argument they've given against it I can already explain". Evolutionists put "faith" in evolution, like Albert Hoffman put "faith" in his formula for LSD.

Regardless (and here's the kicker), I'm not a strict proponent of evolution. I believe, from examining the huge amount of facts, that evolution plays some degree in the developement of species. I don't actually know if evolution is the sole catylist of complexity found in life.
But therein lies the different between our supposed "faiths". Evolution is based on the interpretation of empiricle evidence. Creationism is based on filling god in as an explanation where we don't currently have one. Creation doesn't actually utilize any empiracle evidence, or examine and build on observable and repeatable evidence, it rather works under a false notion of "well we don't have the answers here, here, and here.... therefor that proves god did it."

So yes, there is a clear distinciton between the two supposed "faiths". And as for faith itself, I only hold it for that which has repeatedly and consistently held true. The only absolute faith I have is that the world is a very complex place that we'll continuously need to explore and examine. I'm not just going to fill in the answer where I don't have one.

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You can try as hard as you like, but you will NEVER prove God wrong. It's not possible.

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Funny, because it's been done countless of times. But in a way you are right, I've seen a thousand different creationist arguments proved wrong time and again, only to be ignored by the devoted and used once again. So yes, it is impossible to prove god wrong in the eyes of those so devoted to him that they won't consider reasoning which doesn't match up with their presuppositions. God has been proven wrong on many fronts, however, in the eyes of those who weigh information objectively.

You can say I'm biasedly only supporting evidence in favour of my presupposition, but you would be wrong. I firmly believed in god till I was 19 years old, and I only became an atheist (at least in the sense of god being some spitefull external being as portrayed in many primitive texts) after spending 2 year examing every logical argument made by every side of the debate. Every creationist argument I heard, no matter how much I wanted to believe it, had an obvious logical flaw. My 2 year search was with the purpose of finding the right arguments and confirming what I so badly wanted to believe, that god really was up there. Instead I found a much harder truth.

theres two different types of evolution

micro and macro....micro being what some1 described with the flu virus example...macro being the theory that we evolved from apes

show me the proof of macroevolution plz....it has yet to be reproduced in a lab, and there is still no full blown proof of evolution over millions of years......sure a few things in humans have changed...for example some people have wisdom teeth some dont, but we have yet to prove evolving into a completely differnet spiecies

i respect your beliefs bro but to think that evolution in the sense of macroevolution is complete and infallible fact is just being ignorant....u give plenty of evidence to back ur point up and thats fine, but i can list plenty of evidence in support of God too...can i prove God exists??? not a chance

faith brother....ur using it one way or another

ho hum....what will i do? oh what willlll i do?....... i could go on to repeat the same exact things that mrdevious has stated, but i wont because you obviously just refuse to open your eyes to the truth that is science and insted keep looking up in the sky searching for your invisible magical man that protects you from evil

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

theres two different types of evolution

micro and macro....micro being what some1 described with the flu virus example...macro being the theory that we evolved from apes

show me the proof of macroevolution plz....it has yet to be reproduced in a lab, and there is still no full blown proof of evolution over millions of years......sure a few things in humans have changed...for example some people have wisdom teeth some dont, but we have yet to prove evolving into a completely differnet spiecies

i respect your beliefs bro but to think that evolution in the sense of macroevolution is complete and infallible fact is just being ignorant....u give plenty of evidence to back ur point up and thats fine, but i can list plenty of evidence in support of God too...can i prove God exists??? not a chance

faith brother....ur using it one way or another

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I was under the impression that Macro and Micro evolution were terms coined by creationists. Regardless, both perspectives can be presented.

First of all, you can't reproduce large-scale evolution in a lab because it would require a lab with extremely varrying environmental factors all of which we can understand and take into consideration regarding their effects (which is damn-near impossible), several different species, and a few hundred million years to carry out the experiment. So no, it can't be reproduced in a lab.

Here's one interesting site regarding evolution on a larger scale. You may want to actually research the potential arguments before dismissing them as non-existent.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/


And once again, I'm not stating evolution as an infallable fact, I'm stating that it obviously has some degree of influence on the course of speciation, how much influence remains in question.

Still, creationist's greatest weapon is their distortion of all theory, law, and ideas; that being, trying to place scientists and creationists on equal grounds by perpetuating the false notion that any and every point of view is just "faith", that every idea and standpoint is all just a matter of faith and therefor it all is equally valid. I've yet to hear a real, solid creationist argument based on real research, sound logic, and reasonable interpretation of empiricle evidence. If anybody can prove to me, or at least present reasonable and existent evidence that god exists, I'll not only believe in your god, I just might dance a jig with joy.

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Originally Posted by Billionfold

Nobody can, and that's whats so damned cool about it. It's kind of like how the government beats down on marijuana, when we all knows it's not as bad as they claim.

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And our belief that marijuana isn't as bad as they say, and our believe that we don't deserve to be imprisoned for it, is based on real evidence. It's based on a huge multitude of scientific studies (IE. some of the ones in my sig), a logical interpretation of the success of the "war on drugs", and our own observations of its effects and how it doesn't destroy our lives like we're told. Simply "experiencing" god is not evidence of him, it's evidence of a mental event that has all sorts of causes such as emotion, social/parental conditioning, and fallable leaps of logic. We would need to actually see this god, or have some physical evidence of his existence, in order to believe in him.

Otherwise people interpret their own neuro-chemical events which create certain psychological images/notions, as their "proof" because "I can just feel it deep down. I know deep in my heart".... IE. the processes in their brain have convinced them so thoroughly there's a god, they replicate the emotional/psychological conditions that would arise from actual evidence, leading them to accept the pre-concieved notion as fact because it has the same psychological impact. What people don't, or refuse to consider, is that the right mental conditioning, regarding any concept, can easily convince you of anything with the same result of actually seeing it with your own eyes. Most people think that there would surely be some small degree of doubt within their psyche to counteract this if it didn't really exist, but this is simply not so. People don't give the capabilities of their own brains to fool them enough credit. There are solid neuro-chemical reasons why schizophrenics can be CONVINCED beyond any doubt whatsoever, more real than any belief in god, that the voices in their head threatening them are absolutely real.

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Well, some of us have a relationship with God that others do not. Feels just as good.

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I'm sure it does feel just as good, but this only proves an internal mental event, not an external being (especially one that has a petty ego, imposes codes of morality that are primite products of primitive societies, and imparts wisdom that's immensely weak. "thou shalt not kill"? Anybody can do that, how about a blueprint for a clean-burning car fuel? How about a cure for cancer?).

All I'm saying is that if you really believe in god, there should be no fear in considering and thoroughly researching every argument and every argument against that argument. I went in, firmly holding to my belief in god, researching these arguments and debates so that I could firmly know that my assumption of god was correct. Instead I found the opposite of what I was looking for, and rather than throwing away my intellect and believing what I wanted, I realized that I couldn't hold to something just because it's a nice idea, the evidence supporting the non-existence of god was clearly more logical.

Merry Christmas all.

how many times do i have to say it??? i believe in evolution, i also believe in God but not in the way that ur typical born again christians believe...basically i acknowledge he exists and that he is good...and thats as far as it goes for now, but one again, i believe in evolution

but i dont accept it has fact...just like i dont accept God to be a fact....i realize that both views could be completely wrong and we have no way of finding out

ok so u cant repeat macro evolution in a lab....can u observe it in the world??? did any1 observe apes evolve into us??? didnt think so, and until some1 invents a time machine we will never know for sure, no matter how much "evidence" u think there is

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

how many times do i have to say it??? i believe in evolution, i also believe in God but not in the way that ur typical born again christians believe...basically i acknowledge he exists and that he is good...and thats as far as it goes for now, but one again, i believe in evolution

but i dont accept it has fact...just like i dont accept God to be a fact....i realize that both views could be completely wrong and we have no way of finding out

ok so u cant repeat macro evolution in a lab....can u observe it in the world??? did any1 observe apes evolve into us??? didnt think so, and until some1 invents a time machine we will never know for sure, no matter how much "evidence" u think there is

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I'm not sure you entirely understand evolution. Even if we could go back in time, we STILL couldn't observe it. Evolution is only observable through transitional fossile records and genetic variations with consistencies. Evolution isn't a magical force that makes a monkey one day turn into a man, it's an incredibly gradual process.

But still, my point stands, evolution is based on real empiricle evidence that exists in every species and fossil known. What is the evidence for god? I understand that you don't believe in the old-school traditional god, and that's actually admirable in that you most likely have a more reasonable view of the universe. Even my best friend, the 3rd year biology/chemistry student I told you about, believes in god closer to your sense. But if god is based on these ancient scriptures, and these scriptures don't stand up, what is the rest being based on? Logical reasoning you might say, but if so I've yet to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

theres two different types of evolution

micro and macro....micro being what some1 described with the flu virus example...macro being the theory that we evolved from apes

show me the proof of macroevolution plz....it has yet to be reproduced in a lab, and there is still no full blown proof of evolution over millions of years......sure a few things in humans have changed...for example some people have wisdom teeth some dont, but we have yet to prove evolving into a completely differnet spiecies

i respect your beliefs bro but to think that evolution in the sense of macroevolution is complete and infallible fact is just being ignorant....u give plenty of evidence to back ur point up and thats fine, but i can list plenty of evidence in support of God too...can i prove God exists???

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I am currently at second year university biology level and starting third year genetics next semester.

There is no differentiation in science between the two, micro and macro. They are one and the same. There is one theory, Evolution, this theory has lots and lots of aspects to it. Iâ??m sure 99% of them youâ??ve never heard of. (like genetic drift)

This distinction I assume was created by creationists because they know they canâ??t object to micro itâ??s too obvious. Itâ??s pretty much the same tactic religious people always use.
Something else is proved wrong, so they just keep going with the other bullshit.


No one in science believes that anything â??is complete and infallible factâ?�
Only religious people believe things like that.

Scientists look at all the data we have, think up some ideas that explain it. And accept the best one. If more data is complied which contradict something. Our views change.
Eventually a â??theoryâ?� explains so much information and is constantly correctly predicting amazing things (eg, genetics) and this theory has little or nothing against it, we start to consider it fact. Just as we consider theories of electricity/gravity and so on, fact.

I cant â??proveâ?� electrons exist to you. Nor can I â??proveâ?� evolution occurred.

We essential accept the best solution. And even if creationism was equal to evolution in itâ??s explanatory ability (it is not) science always accepts the simplest solution (itâ??s called Occamâ??s Razor)


I suggest you inform yourself on the Theory before you try to speak against it. Because if everyone on here understood evolutionary theory, we wouldnâ??t be having these discussions.

Oh yes and something doesn’t have to be observed to be “proven”.

There is something called scientific inference, it’s how we know what is in the middle of the earth.

It's nice to have your on board harris! :)

Sometimes it feels like I'm the only person who goes against the general concensus and and questions all this stuff.

BTW, in this entire thread nobody has yet tackled the issues I brought up in the original post. Is somebody going to give me a little intellectually stimulating debate, or should I throw up my arms and except I'm just going to get more "I know I'm right, I put my faith in god."

My fellow posters, please, realize that if your beliefs are true then questioning them and researching the arguments against them (as well as for)will only confirm what you now hold so dear. and if it doesn't, then it's better to have found the truth.

lol intellectually stimulating??? u guys ruined that awhile ago

im not necessarily disagreeing with you guys, im just arguing more for an open mind....the fact that you guys fight so hard for this and that some of the ignorance clearly shows through your logic worries me

i on the other hand am open to anything...sure i have my set of beliefs which i personally believe to be the most likely through my understanding of truth, but i am fully aware that i am most likely wrong, or at the very least could be wrong...in fact the statement that probably most clearly sums it up for me is that id be willing to bet that no one got it right but that wont matter in the end

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

im not necessarily disagreeing with you guys, im just arguing more for an open mind....the fact that you guys fight so hard for this and that some of the ignorance clearly shows through your logic worries me

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IF you see a flaw in my logic point it out. I do not believe there is one, and the fact that you havent pointed any out makes me think you are bluffing.

And you know, you can stop blaming our disagreements on my "ignorance".

a more open mind... an open mind dosn't mean believing everything. it means considering everything criticaly.
I have done this, it sounds like you have two. but I do not believe you can properly consider evolution without a good understanding of it.

I assume you dont have a good understanding of it because really few people do. i didn't untill last year when i formaly learned aoub it

You gotta admit, it's a pretty intelligent design.

I mean who could come up with a design that actually evolves based on it's environment.

There is no doubt that evolution is a fact. It is the only conceivable explanation for how a complex intelligence of any type could arise in the universe. As a million creationists have already pointed out, complex things don't just come out of nowhere by chance. They come into existence only by small incremental changes to self-replicating beings whose occasional mutations provide a gene pool in which natural selection selects more advantageous forms for surviving and replicating in a given environment. If there is an intelligence complex enough to design universes out there, then it must have evolved somehow. And if it evolved, it does not deserve the name "God".

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but we are apes. The DNA sequences of the primates have been studied extensively, and mathematically it's simply impossible that our DNA just looks exactly like it's descended from ape DNA through sheer luck. Either God is trying to trick us into thinking we're closely related to the other ape species, or we really are apes.

And honestly, if you were God, why would you create man in your own image, and then go on to make chimpanzees in 97% of your own image, and gorillas in 95% of your own image, and so forth? Why would you even design it so their junk DNA (the huge strands of DNA that don't do anything at all) looks uncannily similar to each other?

Why would you go around making DNA strands that can be arranged in hierarchical evolutionary trees that look mathematically identical to what we would expect from random modifications and Darwinian natural selection? Why would you place abundant fossil evidence of proto-human like creatures, the Australopithecines and the various species of Homo, to make it look like there is a continuous line between apes and humans?

The universe is not made for us. We have to get over our arrogant aspirations and accept that. We, and the rest of the life-forms on this planet, are just the product of what happens when natural selection is allowed to develop simple self-replicating molecules into ever more complex forms over geological timescales. There is no giant father figure in the sky looking down on us, guiding our particular species, meticulously looking after the world for our benefit.

In this world without meaning are those who pretend
that their lives and their deeds serve some grand cosmic end
and that they are the reason for all that exists
and the fate of the cosmos is right in their fists

And to them we're not apes with less hair and big brains,
we're the center of everything there's to explain!
Not just masses of atoms traversing through space,
rather far grander things from a far grander place!

We're just specks on this planet which, I do believe,
is much larger than anything we can conceive,
and that planet's a speck to its star that's a speck
in a universe which is gigantic as heck!

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Originally Posted by ate

You gotta admit, it's a pretty intelligent design.

I mean who could come up with a design that actually evolves based on it's environment.

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It's not a design. It's just what happens when entities become capable of making pretty faithful copies of themselves. Once you get that going, there's no way to prevent it!

The real question is, who could come up with a design for a designer who can create the whole universe and millions of complex lifeforms? And who could come up with a design for an intelligent designer designer? Surely if God created the whole universe, and has the machinery for monitoring everything that goes on inside it, and the machinery for generating all the biological diversity around us, then he must be way more intricate and complex than life itself!

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Originally Posted by harris7

IF you see a flaw in my logic point it out. I do not believe there is one, and the fact that you havent pointed any out makes me think you are bluffing.

And you know, you can stop blaming our disagreements on my "ignorance".

a more open mind... an open mind dosn't mean believing everything. it means considering everything criticaly.
I have done this, it sounds like you have two. but I do not believe you can properly consider evolution without a good understanding of it.

I assume you dont have a good understanding of it because really few people do. i didn't untill last year when i formaly learned aoub it

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the flaw in ur logic is that u accept evolution to be 100% true without a doubt in ur mind

gravity is 100% true, thats why its called a law....show me a person who doubts the existence of gravity plz

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

It's not a design. It's just what happens when entities become capable of making pretty faithful copies of themselves. Once you get that going, there's no way to prevent it!

The real question is, who could come up with a design for a designer who can create the whole universe and millions of complex lifeforms? And who could come up with a design for an intelligent designer designer? Surely if God created the whole universe, and has the machinery for monitoring everything that goes on inside it, and the machinery for generating all the biological diversity around us, then he must be way more intricate and complex than life itself!

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the very definition of God proves your statement wrong....

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

the flaw in ur logic is that u accept evolution to be 100% true without a doubt in ur mind

gravity is 100% true, thats why its called a law....show me a person who doubts the existence of gravity plz

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Actually gravity is a theory (that scary word that creationists constantly mix up with "hypothesis"). The law of gravitation, however, is indeed the law you speak of.

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

lol intellectually stimulating??? u guys ruined that awhile ago

im not necessarily disagreeing with you guys, im just arguing more for an open mind....the fact that you guys fight so hard for this and that some of the ignorance clearly shows through your logic worries me

i on the other hand am open to anything...sure i have my set of beliefs which i personally believe to be the most likely through my understanding of truth, but i am fully aware that i am most likely wrong, or at the very least could be wrong...in fact the statement that probably most clearly sums it up for me is that id be willing to bet that no one got it right but that wont matter in the end

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You're not letting off as the open minded person you keep claiming to be, just presenting arogance through ignorance. Simply stating that everything is unsure and never taking a stance isn't "open minded", it's just choosing not to take any risks or make any real effort to search for the truth. Real open mindedness isn't shying away from reality, it's engaging in intellectual debate and considering all points of logic so as to get closer to the truth than you were before.

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Originally Posted by Billionfold

I don't see why things have to be logical to be true.

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Because logic is not an exclusive human invention, it is only a human understanding. Logic is not what we already know, it is not a limitation on our understanding of reality, it is a means by which we can understand our existence.

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If you have to have cold hard facts to believe, you're missing out on a wonderful feeling.

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Logic is often portrayed as "cold" and "hard" which turns a lot of people off, though it is anything but. Logic isn't about measuring everyting by means already discovered, it's about finding new ways to look at things, new ways to understand how the universe really works. Being a "wonderfull feeling" doesn't make something true, it just gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling. There are those of us who find a great mystery and wonder in life by not surrenderinr ourselves to fuzzy feelings, but through searching for the truth constantly and always pushing the limits of what we supposedly know. If you just throw logic out the window, you're not "opening up" to the universe, you're passively sitting back while the world passes you by rather than emracing it and seeking to discover its mysteries.

Everything is possible, but that doesn't make everything plausible. If you want the possible to be plausible, that's where exploration comes in.

I'm glad Mr Devious and Billionfold can at least have an argument about this subject that is sensible to both sides. However, Stemis, you look like a fucking idiot. Are you even reading the posts above you? If you want to argue your point, answer Mr Devious's questions or try and say why you think that they're wrong. Stop just answering questions with questions or making statements that go off the topic of what he asked.
Continue...

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Originally Posted by Stemis516

the flaw in ur logic is that u accept evolution to be 100% true without a doubt in ur mind

gravity is 100% true, thats why its called a law....show me a person who doubts the existence of gravity plz

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First off that wouldnâ??t be a flaw in my logic it would be a flawed conclusion! Which would be caused by a false premise. anyways


as I said, you clearly are not reading what I write. Remember a few posts ago when I said:

â??No one in science believes that anything â??is complete and infallible factâ?�
Only religious people believe things like that.â?�

I do not accept evolution to be 100% true. That is not how science works. I currently believe evolutional theory because it is the best explanation. If something in the future better explains the facts I will believe that. Something replacing evolution is very unlikely because it explains such a daunting body of data.

Again Iâ??ll say it, in science nothing can be proven 100%. Things can only be supported and falsified. Evolution is very strongly supported.
The theory will probably be changed but the fundamental part of it (that species change and become new ones) will not change, it is too strongly supported by evidence

And again, you show that you do not understand science. Law of Gravity isnâ??t 100% true. Itâ??s funny that you believe that gravity is true when evolution is. He he he

The word gravity is just a name for a phenomenon. How can a name be true or false? Names are arbitrary so they are all true!

If you mean the theory of gravity you probably mean Newtonâ??s law of gravity

Newtonâ??s law of gravity is a equation that describes the relationship between the velocity of an object in freefall and time. It actually isnâ??t very accurate. It is only somewhat accurate a few km from the earth surface at speeds less than ½ the speed of light and so on.

Stemis, you keep saying that evolutionists can put lots of evidence behind evolution. But you belittle this by saying that intelligen design supporters can too. I beg of you, please put some support for I.D. forward. I doubt you have anything significantâ?¦

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Originally Posted by ate

You gotta admit, it's a pretty intelligent design.

I mean who could come up with a design that actually evolves based on it's environment.

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This is a valid point, Creationism doesnâ??t conflict with evolution. They are both true if god created the universe then evolution took place.

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Originally Posted by Billionfold

I don't see why things have to be logical to be true. If you have to have cold hard facts to believe, you're missing out on a wonderful feeling. .

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I donâ??t necessarily believe that things have to be logical to be true.
Bush got elected, that wasnâ??t logical but itâ??s trueâ?¦:rasta:


But I do think beliefs should be based in logic.
I really donâ??t like using the word logic, people have put it up on to high of a pedestal.
Anyways, the opposite of logic is irrational.

So if you are not basing a belief on logic it is an irrational belief to have.

A belief produced by logic is a belief of which one has reason to have.

Billonfold, do you believe that beliefs need to be based in logic? Because that is what we are talking about here.

Regardless of the existence of god. Should one believe in god? I donâ??t think so. I think this because I believe there is a large gap between the evidence and our observation and drawing the conclusion that god exists.

What do you think?

I'd just like to point out to any creationists out there, that I will not be a condescending asshole and say "yeah! see! I told you so, I'm right, I'm the winner, blah blah blah blah....". I can't stand it when people do that. I hold these discussions solely for the purpose of engaging, and encouraging others, to have philisophical discussions and have hopefully make us all questions our suppositions and give our brains a workout.

I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading MrDevious's and harris7's posts....Stemis516, you basically keep making yourself look like an idiot, like Kippo said.

Carry on fellas.

look im done with this conversation because i dont care enough, or have enough organization or the time to put together a legit post with sources and all kinds of evidence....besides whats the point when i could make a good arguement and it wouldnt sway any1....im satisfied with my what i think and thats enough for me

let me just take the time to at least salute devious and harris for being reasonable and mature about the situation


however for the children who have nothing to say but yet still feel they can fling mud just because they think they are funny....well good game, is all i can say to that

billion. i'm talkin to you too about non religious things too

look 5 posts up

or will it be 6 once i post this hmmmm

God works in mysterious ways...just kidding. You make some good points Mr D, I think everyone who has faith in an organized religion does so for one or more of these reasons.

1. Hardwired as a child
2. Can't accept the unknown.
3. Tramatic experience, had no one to turn to but "God"

I think if religion wasn't a strong influence in someones life and if they were able to think without bias most wouldn't believe. I have yet to find someone who doesn't fit in one of the three categories. I don't believe in any man made god but don't discredit a superior alien race that could act as a "god".